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General Palace Discussion General Palace talk - please keep transfer talk in the transfer forum.

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  #201  
Old 21-04-2020, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Paxton View Post
I've got Peter Manning's book, though I'm ashamed to say I haven't got round to reading it yet.
The website article/YouTube video seem to be largely or entirely based on PM's research. The book came out a year or so ago so I guess he may have unearthed a few more facts since then.
The period I think is really interesting is from 1895 (when the Cup Final ground was opened) to 1905. I'm not sure that I'd realised that there was a Crystal Palace amateur team which played during that period - or the extent to which that team may have morphed into the 1905 limited company. It would seem to tie in with the notion that the cricket club (which continued) just stopped playing football for a while in the absence of a pitch. Though I think that anyone would have to accept that the idea of a football club "existing" but not playing any matches for 20 years does seem to be pushing things a bit.

Peter Manning's book is very 'dry' reading, nevertheless it's raison d'etre (apart from pulling together numerous historic news pieces) is to make/claim the connection between the 1861 CPFC and the 1905 one.

The Steve Martyniuk books are greatly more readable IMO, and volume 1 in particular tells the story of not only the formation and existence of the 1861 club, but also how the game of Association Football itself came into existence, with no small amount of input from (1861) CPFC men.

I think the written article on the CPFC website today makes the connection in the most clear way I have read yet (IMO clearer than Manning's book itself)

The cricket club, from which the 1861 CPFC was formed, continued after the football games stopped....and the WG Grace connection to cricket at Crystal Palace, and then his part in forming the 1905 CPFC for the Crystal Palace company.

It is a bold statement to make the connection, and I won't be surprised if our friends on North Korea chat are mocking already, but if Palace are serious about this, then they just have to run with it, and not let it be a news item for a day, which slips down the page.

I do wonder if the 2021 "160th Anniversary" has some sort of commercial angle to it of course
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  #202  
Old 21-04-2020, 04:36 PM
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Fascinating stuff, the lineage is clear to me even though there is clearly a sizeable gap in terms of the actual football being played. Hats off to ElwissatMemphis who played a blinder at the start of this thread.
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  #203  
Old 21-04-2020, 04:38 PM
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That seventeen minute totally unbiased documentary on the Palace website of course conclusively proves we are the oldest professional football club in the world. OK there is a slight 20 year gap in the historical record, which pedants might suggest show they were actually two different clubs.

But I can hear the chant now:
“It’s Crystal Palace FC
By far the oldest team the world has ever seen”.

Which actually, given the age of our squad, might actually be quite near the truth.
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  #204  
Old 21-04-2020, 04:40 PM
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Fascinating history and great to see the club pursuing this.

Cynical perhaps, but I don't expect many people outside the club to pay a blind bit of notice.

Most people will associate Palace with the brutalism of Croydon's town centre and Selhurst's raffish charm. Rather difficult, I would assume, for an outsider to imagine how a line runs from the 1860s to our beautiful concrete jungle. And Selhurst doesn't exactly scream 'heritage'.

However, with a bit of chat around the history of football following The English Game, which was terrible, and nothing else going on right now, maybe the football community will pay attention.
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  #205  
Old 21-04-2020, 04:41 PM
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WG Grace is an important connection and well used by CPFC because hes such a household name in the development of sport. CPFC 1861. Get it on the new shirts.
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  #206  
Old 21-04-2020, 04:48 PM
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Until about 10 years ago, the majority of people abroad would only have heard of Crystal Palace because of the athletics meetings, the Cantona kung-fu kick, and Jesus' face on that aerial photo of the pitch.

This will raise the profile massively, and almost justifies the ancient Main Stand being preserved forever.
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  #207  
Old 21-04-2020, 04:50 PM
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Whoever was the original football club you can only assume the players would've had to play with themselves a lot
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  #208  
Old 21-04-2020, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by leelouca View Post
Now we are a debt free well run club looking to fly home to the NSC.

Wouldn't it be amazing if we incorporated the 1861 title in our new stadium along with a new badge which would have 1861 on it somewhere? We will be linked by the ground now! (hopefully)

It is after all the home of 1861 side, we the 1905 team played there less time than the original cpfc, and other teams have claimed older teams history in the past such as Hitchin who 1861 actually played in first ever FA Cup against and drew 0-0 but we both went through to the Semis!

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  #209  
Old 21-04-2020, 05:32 PM
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Just had a google about "1860" Munich.

Apparently they were an athletics club who didn't actually start a football section until 1899....



By that reckoning, the "1861" CPFC should actually claim 1857 as their start date, as that is when the cricket started at Crystal Palace, from which the original footballers came together!!!
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  #210  
Old 21-04-2020, 05:39 PM
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If the club is serious about this, then for a start, they need to change the date on the club crest!

Seriously though, the online article where the claim is made feels a bit 'rushed' to me. For one thing it says Notts County are the oldest League club, which is incorrect, as they were relegated from the league a year ago and now play in the Vanarama.


I think the club website article does suggest a better link than Peter Manning's book though.


Rather than mention the 1861 club, then a huge leap from the 1870's to 1895, then another decade long jump, it instead looks to the continuous thread of the cricket club, from which the 1861 clu

But if you do that, then surely you should take things back to 1857 when the cricket club was formed?


A can of worms for sure!
As regards the formation of the Crystal Palace Cricket Club - we have this fascinating newspaper cutting from September 1853!






The Era Sunday 18 September 1853

We have to credit BBS poster ‘Plumey’ for this cutting - after viewing the club video I’m beginning to wonder if Plumey is actually Peter Manning?

Anyway, points of interest are:

1. The date: The Original Crystal Palace building closed after six months in 1851 in Hyde Park after construction began in 1850.

The building was dismantled and moved in a much enlarged version to Norwood construction began in 1852, but was not completed until June 1854.

Note this match is nearly two years before!

2 Cross-referencing the names on both sides, the name Hollidge appears for ‘Norwood Albion’. It appears this was one of the professional cricketers that Crystal Palace Company approached to set up the ‘official’ cricket club in 1857 - a fact I think that was overlooked in any history to date.

3 Modern day CPFC fans, at least those that use South Norwood High Street before and after home matches, will surely recognise the names Jolly Sailor and The Albion as two of the main pubs in the area.

How fitting that this was Palace’s first ever fixture! The fact that it was against a team named Albion, nearly 50 years before a team from the South Coast chose the same title only adds to the intrigue!

Of course, many football clubs also owe their roots to cricket clubs, one of the first was the Wednesday club of Sheffield, formed in 1820, although their football section did not form until 1867 - six years after the original CPFC!

As some may know, The Wednesday were also the first ever opponents to visit Selhurst Park in 1924.
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  #211  
Old 21-04-2020, 05:52 PM
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Just wondering whether all clubs had to pay a subscription to the FA whether they were in the original Football League or via an Association.
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  #212  
Old 21-04-2020, 06:16 PM
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This has been talked about for quite a while and great to see us make something of it, but is there any official line that we are genuinely pursuing the reclaim and to be able to use it? I can see the statement from Steve but nothing in regards to next steps. Would be incredible to have next to our name.
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  #213  
Old 21-04-2020, 06:19 PM
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So when will we start dressing like QPR?
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  #214  
Old 21-04-2020, 06:25 PM
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The debate goes on

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  #215  
Old 21-04-2020, 06:27 PM
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The FA were originally known as The London Football Association. Quite an odd fact now, but the four main clubs that advocated playing by Cambridge Rules included our own CPFC, several others fell out with the original FA over the ‘handling’ and ‘hacking’ laws, Blackheath, most notably, who became one of the oldest Rugby clubs instead!

The Sheffield FA had several divergent laws, but eventually became aligned with the Lonfon FA and this was probably the last barrier to the game taking off in the North from the 1870s onwards and the ‘London F.A.’ became the main body, all clubs had to register with them to compete in any competition.

Not all ‘County’ F.A.s embraced professionalism however. Which became a peculiar trait in CPFC 1905’s early history. The Crystal Palace grounds fell partly in Surrey and the club should have been affiliated to the Surrey FA, but the SFA refused to allow any member clubs to be professional until circa 1908 - until forced to by the FA. Palace had to join the Kent FA instead, not a problem as part of the park was in Kent - the original 1861 CPFC also played on the Kent side of the grounds and Kent County Cricket Club occasionally played matches on the CP pitch in the 1880s too.
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Old 21-04-2020, 06:28 PM
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As much as I'd love Crystal Palace to be the oldes football club in the world, I have yet to see any proof that an organization existed and that games were played in the years between 1976 and 1895. A kickabout on occasional Sundays between a bunch of friends is not going to hold up if they are to be successful. The whole era leading up to to 1876 and the Palace's role in the formation of the FA is covered in great detail in Steve Maryniuk's book but that also does not continue beyond that before a new cclub suddenly emerges in 1895
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Old 21-04-2020, 06:32 PM
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This has been talked about for quite a while and great to see us make something of it, but is there any official line that we are genuinely pursuing the reclaim and to be able to use it? I can see the statement from Steve but nothing in regards to next steps. Would be incredible to have next to our name.
They certainly have plastered it all over the Official website, which would suggest they are serious about this and this isn't going to go away.

That Chris Grierson was sent to the FA to peruse the original FA minutes book means they know the club is actively into this. Amazed they didn't make him wear white gloves to be honest.

I think the club should have a go at making the claim official and see what comes back. Not sure how such a claim is made official, but there are several strands to the claim - the Crystal Palace Company being central.

Even as far back as the 1976 Semi Final programme, it has been stressed 'absolutely no connection' between the 1905 club and the 1860's amateurs.
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  #218  
Old 21-04-2020, 06:46 PM
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Hang on a second...

Doesn’t this mean that we’ve won **** all over a longer period?
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Old 21-04-2020, 06:47 PM
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Whoever was the original football club you can only assume the players would've had to play with themselves a lot
Which suggests very strongly that Man Utd are the oldest team then.
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Old 21-04-2020, 06:50 PM
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As much as I'd love Crystal Palace to be the oldes football club in the world, I have yet to see any proof that an organization existed and that games were played in the years between 1976 and 1895. A kickabout on occasional Sundays between a bunch of friends is not going to hold up if they are to be successful. The whole era leading up to to 1876 and the Palace's role in the formation of the FA is covered in great detail in Steve Maryniuk's book but that also does not continue beyond that before a new cclub suddenly emerges in 1895
Thing is, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of Stoke ever playing at all before 1868, but it doesn't stop them putting 1863 on their crest.
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