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  #61  
Old 30-01-2011, 04:30 PM
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Can CPSatelitte or anyone else help here. From the map

2. Old Cricket Pavilion: A late 19th century building stood on this site until 1960. It was used by the famous cricketer Dr WG Grace (1848-1915), who would walk over to play his matches from his home, ‘Parklands’, sited on Crystal Palace Park Road. Dr Grace was player and manager of the London County Cricket Club based at Crystal Palace.

Does anyone know which way the Pavallion used to face?

7. Football: This is where the first ever F.A Cup Final was held in 1895. In addition to the Cup Finals, the Palace played host to England-v-Scotland Internationals played every four years from 1897.

From the Picture below (if the map above is correct) then the Pavillion must have been facing north-westwards, thus the cricket ground must have been where one of the original lakes was?????


Last edited by Crunchie; 30-01-2011 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 30-01-2011, 05:49 PM
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The map below dates from 1864.



As you can see, the two main features of the Park are the Southern and Northern Basins - the two ornamental lakes that became too expensive to run and by 1894 had been filled in to become the sports 'Exhibition Grounds'.

Very basically, the Southern Basin became the 'South Ground' - where the FA Cup Finals were played from 1895-1914 and which is the current day Athletics Stadium - where CPFC2010 intend to relocate to.

The Northern Basin became the 'North Ground' - it was also used for football (Palace actually used both the South and North Grounds for matches) - but was primarily an Athletics and Cycle Track.

As you can see, in the bottom right of the map, was the Cricket Ground. This is where it would have made sense for the Crystal Palace Cricket Club to have played from 1857 onwards and also the Crystal Palace Football Club from 1861. It is possible that they played outside the Park - as plenty of land would have been available further along in Penge - but it does beg the question why the players and officials would use the name 'Crystal Palace' and not play in the Park!

The London County Cricket Club was formed in 1899 - it was instigated by the Crystal Palace Company who contacted WG Grace to set the Club up - the Club played on the same piece of land as the 1864 map shows.

WG Grace was also asked to set up Crystal Palace FC in 1904 - but the original attempt to found the current CPFC was abandoned as the FA refused to let the Club own the Cup Final Ground (The North Ground) - so a seperate company was set up in 1905 that rented the Ground - and the current CPFC was born that year - with a completely different committee.
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Old 30-01-2011, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CP Satellite
The map below dates from 1864.

As you can see, the two main features of the Park are the Southern and Northern Basins - the two ornamental lakes that became too expensive to run and by 1894 had been filled in to become the sports 'Exhibition Grounds'.

Very basically, the Southern Basin became the 'South Ground' - where the FA Cup Finals were played from 1895-1914 and which is the current day Athletics Stadium - where CPFC2010 intend to relocate to.

The Northern Basin became the 'North Ground' - it was also used for football (Palace actually used both the South and North Grounds for matches) - but was primarily an Athletics and Cycle Track.

As you can see, in the bottom right of the map, was the Cricket Ground. This is where it would have made sense for the Crystal Palace Cricket Club to have played from 1857 onwards and also the Crystal Palace Football Club from 1861. It is possible that they played outside the Park - as plenty of land would have been available further along in Penge - but it does beg the question why the players and officials would use the name 'Crystal Palace' and not play in the Park!

The London County Cricket Club was formed in 1899 - it was instigated by the Crystal Palace Company who contacted WG Grace to set the Club up - the Club played on the same piece of land as the 1864 map shows.

WG Grace was also asked to set up Crystal Palace FC in 1904 - but the original attempt to found the current CPFC was abandoned as the FA refused to let the Club own the Cup Final Ground (The North Ground) - so a seperate company was set up in 1905 that rented the Ground - and the current CPFC was born that year - with a completely different committee.
Thanks CP Satellite. Interesting stuff.

I thought the FA Cup Finals were played on the North Ground, as you can see the Cricket Pavilion on the right hand side from that old picture?

Your right about the cricket grounds, many football teams played on these grounds in the winter time, as you've already mentioned. Northampton only left their cricket ground officially in 1994.
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Old 30-01-2011, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunchie
Thanks CP Satellite. Interesting stuff.

I thought the FA Cup Finals were played on the North Ground, as you can see the Cricket Pavilion on the right hand side from that old picture?

Your right about the cricket grounds, many football teams played on these grounds in the winter time, as you've already mentioned. Northampton only left their cricket ground officially in 1994.
No the Pavilion in your picture dates from 1895 and was a feature of the South Ground, mainly used for football, although Rugby Internationals were also played there - it was not used for cricket.

The Cricket Pavilion you are talking about was below and outside the North Ground completely separate- I'm not sure how long it was in place, the London County Cricket Club was disbanded in 1909, so may not have been used much after that year.
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Old 30-01-2011, 07:46 PM
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[QUOTE=ChristalPalaceThis, some footballers were also cricketers in the summer months (or they were cricketers who also played football in winter) well into the 20th Century, let alone the 19th.[/QUOTE]

Denis and Leslie Compton (both Arsenal and Middlesex), Leslie was a footy Intl. Denis was a top cricket Intl who also represented England at footy.
Ian Botham.
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Old 30-01-2011, 07:54 PM
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In Ian Leith's book, 'Delamotte's Crystal Palace', he states,

'The fountains were not ready in 1854 and it was not until 1856 that the full set was in operation. They were so complex and so difficult to maintain that within a few decades the main jets were abandoned, though smaller fountains continued to operate until World War 1. The basins for the two largest fountains were so large that they were later converted into a football stadium: the annual final of the FA Cup was played here for twenty years and today the name Crystal Palace ia almost exclusively associated with the football club of the same name. But other games were also associated with the palace: the famous WG Grace played for the Crystal Palace cricket team........'

In Roy Peskett's 'The Crystal Palace Story' in 1969, he states,

'The first Crystal Palace club was formed in 1861.............'

It seems to me that despite there being no club between 1876 ish and 1905. the original club was called Crystal Palace and the club I support is called Crystal Palace, they played in the same park, possibly on the same pitch and therefore we should be celebrating our 150th anniversary. What a history, it should be celebrated.

After all, my cricket club disbanded in 1996 due to the fact that most of the mercenaries joined local clubs as they had very little connection to the village and just buggered off. In 2001, some local 30 somethings had moved to the village and thought they could recreate their schoolboy dreams. The club is still called the same and plays on the same pitch (and has done so since at least 1865). The new club has different officers but it is still the same.
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Old 30-01-2011, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viking's no1
In Ian Leith's book, 'Delamotte's Crystal Palace', he states,

'The fountains were not ready in 1854 and it was not until 1856 that the full set was in operation. They were so complex and so difficult to maintain that within a few decades the main jets were abandoned, though smaller fountains continued to operate until World War 1. The basins for the two largest fountains were so large that they were later converted into a football stadium: the annual final of the FA Cup was played here for twenty years and today the name Crystal Palace ia almost exclusively associated with the football club of the same name. But other games were also associated with the palace: the famous WG Grace played for the Crystal Palace cricket team........'

In Roy Peskett's 'The Crystal Palace Story' in 1969, he states,

'The first Crystal Palace club was formed in 1861.............'

It seems to me that despite there being no club between 1876 ish and 1905. the original club was called Crystal Palace and the club I support is called Crystal Palace, they played in the same park, possibly on the same pitch and therefore we should be celebrating our 150th anniversary. What a history, it should be celebrated.

After all, my cricket club disbanded in 1996 due to the fact that most of the mercenaries joined local clubs as they had very little connection to the village and just buggered off. In 2001, some local 30 somethings had moved to the village and thought they could recreate their schoolboy dreams. The club is still called the same and plays on the same pitch (and has done so since at least 1865). The new club has different officers but it is still the same.

I think it is fair to say the two CPFC's (1861 and 1905) were entirely separate clubs - and they definitely played on different pitches to each other.

There has never been any direct link established, with players or officials of the 1861 CPFC becoming involved with the 1905 Club - what links the two clubs is the Palace building they are both named after and the Park that they both played in.

For a club that only existed for 14 years (1861-1875) the original CPFC had a history to be proud of - involved in the original foundation of the FA in 1863 - with officials of CP1861 involved as Secretary and Treasurer of the FA - entering the first FA Cup in 1872 and also having several of the world's first International footballers playing for England and Scotland.

What other Club is best placed to honour the status of such a significant club in the history of the game than the club that bears the same name - from the same area? It makes sense that the current Crystal Palace FC honour the memory of the proud club that helped to establish the game we all know and love today.
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Old 30-01-2011, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CP Satellite
IThere has never been any direct link established, with players or officials of the 1861 CPFC becoming involved with the 1905 Club - what links the two clubs is the Palace building they are both named after and the Park that they both played in..
What other links are required?

Called Crystal Palace, played in the same location give or take a few yards
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Old 31-01-2011, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunchie
Can CPSatelitte or anyone else help here. From the map

2. Old Cricket Pavilion: A late 19th century building stood on this site until 1960. It was used by the famous cricketer Dr WG Grace (1848-1915), who would walk over to play his matches from his home, ‘Parklands’, sited on Crystal Palace Park Road. Dr Grace was player and manager of the London County Cricket Club based at Crystal Palace.

Does anyone know which way the Pavilion used to face?

From the Picture below (if the map above is correct) then the Pavillion must have been facing north-westwards, thus the cricket ground must have been where one of the original lakes was?????
This map indicates the position of the Pavilion
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Old 31-01-2011, 08:36 PM
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Crystal Palace Park Stadium - aerial images







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Old 02-02-2011, 07:46 AM
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Old 02-02-2011, 08:31 AM
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They are fantastic pics.
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial Empire
Denis and Leslie Compton (both Arsenal and Middlesex), Leslie was a footy Intl. Denis was a top cricket Intl who also represented England at footy.
Ian Botham.
I'd forgotten Beefy played for Scunthorpe - and had a trial at Palace.
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Old 02-02-2011, 07:26 PM
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Freethinker - great pics. What was the year?
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Old 02-02-2011, 07:44 PM
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Two different years there

Pictures 1,3 & 4 seem to be the same layout. Picture two is a different set up entirely around the football pitch

At a guess, 2 is earlier than the others

The top photo appears to have the exact layout we are proposing for the new development
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Old 02-02-2011, 09:48 PM
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Freethinker - those photos are ******* amazing!

An a separate note, I love the fact a local resident comes on here who claims to know his stuff about CP Park and is put right by our knowledgable fans with plenty of documentary and pictorial evidence.
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Old 03-02-2011, 03:30 PM
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Pic 3 is said to be from circa 1920 - a slightly cropped version is in "To The Palace For The Cup".(page 59) and credited to The Crystal Palace Foundation.
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Old 03-02-2011, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freethinker
I think this is the clearest one as to the different elements being discussed. We know where the fountains were, the north and south basin. In this phot you see teh North Basin very clearly, the track. Beyond it is very obviously the cricket ground which existed by many accounts when teh basins were still fountains.

It is here surely that the football matches of the original club would have been played, WITHIN the park and 200 yards from where the club in 1905 played.

Also it is currently the 149th year/season since that club was formed. Our 150th anniversary would surely be next season! Time for things to be organised?
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Old 03-02-2011, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatGonzo
I think this is the clearest one as to the different elements being discussed. We know where the fountains were, the north and south basin. In this phot you see teh North Basin very clearly, the track. Beyond it is very obviously the cricket ground which existed by many accounts when teh basins were still fountains.

It is here surely that the football matches of the original club would have been played, WITHIN the park and 200 yards from where the club in 1905 played.

Also it is currently the 149th year/season since that club was formed. Our 150th anniversary would surely be next season! Time for things to be organised?


I make you right there Gonzo. I think the leading authority on CPFC 1861 is
Alan Russell - who has read through more archive material on the oeriginal Palace than anyone else I know.

He has suggested that CP1861 could have played outside of the Park - but I think the cricket pitch is the obvious place - as has been said before, the Park only got fenced off in 1875 - when the Crystal Palace Co. and Penge Council came to an agreement to do so - 1875 is the last year there are any records of CP1861 - but there is a mention of a Crystal Palace Rovers in 1883 - the name 'Rovers' does suggest that they had to move - as records of CPR show them playing 'away' matches only.

Personally, I would love there to be some sort of 150th Anniversary of the original Palace club - they have a fantastic history for such a short time in existence - it would be great, as modern day Crystal Palace fans, to have a tribute to the club that carried our name at the very birth of Association Football.

I would have to add my thanks to Freethinker for uploading those wonderful photos of the Palace and grounds. You get a great feel for the vast scale of the building - and it would have been even bigger up to 1866 - that's the year that the 'Northern Transept' was burnt down ( the transepts are the arched domes on the Palace - the biggest of which is a feature of our club badge) - these days that area is very close to the TV mast on Crystal Palace Parade.
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Old 03-02-2011, 05:56 PM
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steve hail came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsteve hail came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsteve hail came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsteve hail came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsteve hail came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsteve hail came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsteve hail came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsteve hail came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsteve hail came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsteve hail came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsteve hail came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
I give you a new dead hero....Alexander Morten

'Morten was the first goalkeeper to captain the English international side and holds the twin distinctions of having been born at an earlier date than any other international footballer, and of being older than any other England player on his international debut.'


A Palace player was the first international player born EVER!

Barcelona! Inter Milan! Manchester United! Notts County! Read this and weep.

That in itself is enough to acknowledge a connection to the original Crystal Palace.
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