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  #1001  
Old 10-01-2022, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by paulpaulblue View Post
You could have equally used 1861 but choose not to.
i agree that there will be still be few players around from the 1860s and 1870s. but as they would be in their 50s to 70s "most would be dead" as "average life span" was 46
That is the reason they would not be buying shares in 1905.
It is a flawed use of data. Approx 1 in 3 children died under 12 in Victorian London which greatly impacts that life expectancy figure. If you make it to adulthood, the vast majority also make it significantly beyond 46
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  #1002  
Old 10-01-2022, 09:37 AM
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Christ Alive, what has this thread become lol
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  #1003  
Old 10-01-2022, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by tasty_snacks View Post
What you describe is the founding histories of dozens of football clubs, whose formation years are generally accepted. Notts County for example didn't even play association football - their earliest recorded matches account for the teaming scoring 'goals and rogues.'

Dozens of clubs started as works' teams, member's clubs etc. They would not have had any support as we understand it today. And there are multiple gaps in the histories of older clubs.

All early matches were friendlies prior to the league/ FA cup. Are you therefore saying that ANY club claiming to be founded prior to those dates is not permitted to claim to exist prior to that?
Surely to establish a definite link, there should be some indisputable link, between the two clubs? None of the earlier CPFC1861 players or officials are mentioned anywhere as being in the formation of the 1905 CPFC. If the 1861 Palace footballers, who played on the cricket pitch at the foot of Crystal Palace Park nearest to Penge (and for around three years near the Crooked Billet pub in Penge) had wanted to play in the same location as the 1905 club, they would have got very wet as in the 1860s and 1870s it was a huge man-made lake with a 100ft fountain in the middle of it!

It’s clear to me, from reading about several of the 1861-1875 players, many stayed involved with the CP Cricket Club, most notably Charles Eastlake Smith, who not only played many games for CPFC1861, was one of the earliest England internationals and served on the FA committee until 1876 - after the CP club played it’s last football fixture.

He was the CP Cricket club secretary up to 1888 and was still playing cricket at CP Park into the 1890s - he died in Bromley in 1917. He had a cousin, G.O. Smith who was a famous England and Corinthian footballer and a daughter who won an Olympic Gold tennis medal in the 1908 Olympics.

Strangely enough, C.E. Smith is never linked to CPFC 1905. We can guess that he may have been at least vaguely interested, what with 20 FA Cup Finals played at Crystal Palace between 1895 and 1914 as a former FA official or gone to at least one CPFC match between 1905 and 1915 when we played at CP Park - but there is no mention of him - that would be one fascinating person to interview - but sadly we only have material relating to his football and cricket involvement long before CPFC 1905 came into being.
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Last edited by CP Satellite; 10-01-2022 at 09:59 AM.
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  #1004  
Old 10-01-2022, 10:26 AM
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I genuinely don't understand the animosity towards the claim.
The animosity is because there has not been shown to be a clear link between the 2 clubs. I'd expect a lot more evidence if the club is going to ignore the 115 years of its own history where 1905 was regarded as the foundation date and the 30 year gap where no football club existed.
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  #1005  
Old 10-01-2022, 10:28 AM
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Just post it on Wikipedia and send out a tweet and it becomeas fact. THis is how the world works
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  #1006  
Old 10-01-2022, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by hong_kong_hg View Post
Whataboutery doesn't change the basic facts as CP Satellite has so eloquently laid them out, nor that the club mysteriously waited 116 years to decide it's now 44 years older than it previously knew based on highly selective cherry-picking of tenuous at best links to craft this new narrative.

I am all for celebrating CPFC 1861 and including it as 'our' history but it is cynical dishonesty to claim it was the same club and that now makes us 'the world's oldest club', and no amount of whataboutery is going to change that.
You'll have to explain to me how referencing the accepted formation years of other FCs, whose histories pre-date organised football as we now know it, who have gaps of many years, who had different names, grounds and colours, different people involved between incarnations (all reasons you hold to refute CPFC's claim), is whataboutery.

This is about ensuring you treat all claims objectively and in the context of all clubs' histories (which I would be the first to admit is weaker than most). Your choice of words however strongly suggests to me that you are not open to that.
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  #1007  
Old 10-01-2022, 10:31 AM
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On the badge it says 1905

On the back of that awful shirt it says CPFC 1861

Confused? I am
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  #1008  
Old 10-01-2022, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by CP Satellite View Post
Surely to establish a definite link, there should be some indisputable link, between the two clubs? None of the earlier CPFC1861 players or officials are mentioned anywhere as being in the formation of the 1905 CPFC. If the 1861 Palace footballers, who played on the cricket pitch at the foot of Crystal Palace Park nearest to Penge (and for around three years near the Crooked Billet pub in Penge) had wanted to play in the same location as the 1905 club, they would have got very wet as in the 1860s and 1870s it was a huge man-made lake with a 100ft fountain in the middle of it!

It’s clear to me, from reading about several of the 1861-1875 players, many stayed involved with the CP Cricket Club, most notably Charles Eastlake Smith, who not only played many games for CPFC1861, was one of the earliest England internationals and served on the FA committee until 1876 - after the CP club played it’s last football fixture.

He was the CP Cricket club secretary up to 1888 and was still playing cricket at CP Park into the 1890s - he died in Bromley in 1917. He had a cousin, G.O. Smith who was a famous England and Corinthian footballer and a daughter who won an Olympic Gold tennis medal in the 1908 Olympics.

Strangely enough, C.E. Smith is never linked to CPFC 1905. We can guess that he may have been at least vaguely interested, what with 20 FA Cup Finals played at Crystal Palace between 1895 and 1914 as a former FA official or gone to at least one CPFC match between 1905 and 1915 when we played at CP Park - but there is no mention of him - that would be one fascinating person to interview - but sadly we only have material relating to his football and cricket involvement long before CPFC 1905 came into being.
All v good points CPS.

The bugbear is the 20 year gap and the involvement of named persons. I don't think there's any debate about the link between the CP company having overarching ownership of CP 1861 and 1905. We could certainly use some lineage to link the two if this claim is to be made more fiercely.

But again, there are missing pieces in the histories of other clubs. Certainly there are not always indisputable links. And the gap aside, we do have an indisputable link - the CP company.

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Originally Posted by spike View Post
The animosity is because there has not been shown to be a clear link between the 2 clubs. I'd expect a lot more evidence if the club is going to ignore the 115 years of its own history where 1905 was regarded as the foundation date and the 30 year gap where no football club existed.
Well, it's 20 years, but still...

I don't see how staking a claim for 1861 ignores everything since 1905. Quite the opposite - the 1861 reference only has relevance because of what we've achieved as a club since 1905.

Last edited by tasty_snacks; 10-01-2022 at 10:54 AM.
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  #1009  
Old 10-01-2022, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by tasty_snacks View Post
Well, it's 20 years, but still...
When was the last game for the old club then?
I keep seeing 1876 mentioned as the dissolution date, and last time I checked 1905 - 1876 is 29.

Last edited by spike; 10-01-2022 at 11:16 AM.
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  #1010  
Old 10-01-2022, 12:53 PM
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So the major piece of evidence that the present club was founded in 1861 is from the 1906 handbook which apparently says the early England internationals were their own?

Having looked at the pages of the handbook which are on this thread it says nothing of the sort.

Have I missed anything else or is that it?
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  #1011  
Old 10-01-2022, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Holmesdale View Post
On the badge it says 1905

On the back of that awful shirt it says CPFC 1861

Confused? I am
Yep just change the badge!
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Hey how about the club could invent a little plastic card that you could have in your wallet to access games and maybe it could even come in a little wallet of its own, now that would be really convenient .... just a thought !
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  #1012  
Old 10-01-2022, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by tasty_snacks View Post
All v good points CPS.

I don't think there's any debate about the link between the CP company having overarching ownership of CP 1861 and 1905. We could certainly use some lineage to link the two if this claim is to be made more fiercely.

But again, there are missing pieces in the histories of other clubs. Certainly there are not always indisputable links. And the gap aside, we do have an indisputable link - the CP company.
As I said earlier, this is false. The CP Company simply rented the field to the players (as reported by the newspapers of the time) and did not own CPFC 1861.

Last edited by Penge Eagle; 10-01-2022 at 01:11 PM.
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  #1013  
Old 10-01-2022, 01:28 PM
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As I said earlier, this is false. The CP Company simply rented the field to the players (as reported by the newspapers of the time) and did not own CPFC 1861.
The club video says the company owned both .... who do you think owned the 1861 football and also the cricket club?
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Hey how about the club could invent a little plastic card that you could have in your wallet to access games and maybe it could even come in a little wallet of its own, now that would be really convenient .... just a thought !
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  #1014  
Old 10-01-2022, 01:32 PM
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In 1898, the Crystal Palace Company formed London County Cricket Club after offering W.G. Grace the roles of the club's secretary, manager and captain.

This company seems to form rather than rent!
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Hey how about the club could invent a little plastic card that you could have in your wallet to access games and maybe it could even come in a little wallet of its own, now that would be really convenient .... just a thought !
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  #1015  
Old 10-01-2022, 01:35 PM
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The club video says the company owned both .... who do you think owned the 1861 football and also the cricket club?
Repeating false information from the video is not evidence of the fact. Nobody owned CPFC 1861. As I said in the thread, it was run as a private sports club with its own chairman, secretary, treasurer and committee whose members paid subs. This is documented in the newspapers of the time and in the FA minute book.
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  #1016  
Old 10-01-2022, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Penge Eagle View Post
Repeating false information from the video is not evidence of the fact. Nobody owned CPFC 1861. As I said in the thread, it was run as a private sports club with its own chairman, secretary, treasurer and committee whose members paid subs. This is documented in the newspapers of the time and in the FA minute book.
So you or the FA have the Rent bills and/or receipts for the ground in minutes?
Match tickets or entrance to the whole park got you in to see the games?
And using the Crystal Palace name wouldn't be free to use without consent !
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  #1017  
Old 10-01-2022, 01:52 PM
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..... Strangely enough, C.E. Smith is never linked to CPFC 1905. We can guess that he may have been at least vaguely interested, what with 20 FA Cup Finals played at Crystal Palace between 1895 and 1914 as a former FA official or gone to at least one CPFC match between 1905 and 1915 when we played at CP Park - but there is no mention of him - that would be one fascinating person to interview - but sadly we only have material relating to his football and cricket involvement long before CPFC 1905 came into being.
If the club originally stopped as a result of viability...is that not a bit like asking why Simon Jordan isn't involved in Palace today?
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  #1018  
Old 10-01-2022, 01:54 PM
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If the club originally stopped as a result of viability...is that not a bit like asking why Simon Jordan isn't involved in Palace today?
We still have Phil Alexander
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  #1019  
Old 10-01-2022, 02:20 PM
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Repeating false information from the video is not evidence of the fact. Nobody owned CPFC 1861. As I said in the thread, it was run as a private sports club with its own chairman, secretary, treasurer and committee whose members paid subs. This is documented in the newspapers of the time and in the FA minute book.
Indeed. And people somehow seems to ignore the simple fact that the 1861 stopped playing in 1875 due to a disagreement with the owners of the ground over the right to play there...

Seriously, if the CP company owned the football (and cricket) club, they surely would not have a disagreement with themselves leading to their own club stopping playing.

Football was played at the Palace grounds for many years between the 1875 and 1905 but not by any team called Crystal Palace. The Crystal Palace engineering school played several football games in the 1880s and 90s but they were not a successor to the original 1861 team
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Last edited by Kai; 10-01-2022 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 10-01-2022, 02:38 PM
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Maybe the company owns the club framework ground, clubhouse, shirts and so on but of course not the Amateur players obviously and put up the subs to cover costs leading to the disagreement..
Everything in the Park was there only to pull crowds into the Park and the company had fallen on harder times, this is reported and the cricket club folded for this exact reason ..... it's been reported as the end in this way for the cricket club.
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