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  #101  
Old 26-03-2020, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhino_mik View Post
The wording the government used in their guidance is not to go to work unless it was 'absolutely necessary' and you couldn't do it from home. Unhelpfully there was no guidance on what they meant by 'absolutely necessary'.

Earning a living is absolutely necessary for a lot of people.

Yes.
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  #102  
Old 26-03-2020, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by rhino_mik View Post
The wording the government used in their guidance is not to go to work unless it was 'absolutely necessary' and you couldn't do it from home. Unhelpfully there was no guidance on what they meant by 'absolutely necessary'.

Earning a living is absolutely necessary for a lot of people.
In the meantime, I've set my own guidelines: Gas and water leaks with boiler breakdowns, or loss of hot water for hygiene purposes. Pretty much everything else can wait.

I'm hopeful this evening's press conference will explain a system that will tide us over in the short term, just praying it's not too convoluted. Keep it simple and straight forward now, and it should be easier to work out later when the books go in for that financial year.
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  #103  
Old 26-03-2020, 11:25 AM
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I have heard lots of people saying that banks are insisting that you use your house as collateral for thebusiness interruption loan scheme, so avoiding the government 'we will cover 80% of the loan'.

Also confusion if wages are processed at 80% of the normal figure and then if HMRC will then only payback 80% of the 80%.
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  #104  
Old 26-03-2020, 11:33 AM
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In the meantime, I've set my own guidelines: Gas and water leaks with boiler breakdowns, or loss of hot water for hygiene purposes. Pretty much everything else can wait.

I'm hopeful this evening's press conference will explain a system that will tide us over in the short term, just praying it's not too convoluted. Keep it simple and straight forward now, and it should be easier to work out later when the books go in for that financial year.
I just wonder if when the govt finally announces the system for support for the self employed whether there will be rules on showing why they couldn't work.

The government has not decreed any work to stop and there has been no change in the law in that regard, that I am aware of anyway. I would like to know otherwise though.
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  #105  
Old 26-03-2020, 12:02 PM
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I just wonder if when the govt finally announces the system for support for the self employed whether there will be rules on showing why they couldn't work.

The government has not decreed any work to stop and there has been no change in the law in that regard, that I am aware of anyway. I would like to know otherwise though.
I guess it could be a bit tricky tbf. In this situation, most people actually want to be at work rather than some fiddle that could take up to the end of April, maybe further.

Like I say, the more straight forward, the better. Give the benefits now, and any invoices in the benefit period should be accounted for in the tax return.

There would be an outcry should the essential work thing come into play, it would also be almost impossible to prove.
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  #106  
Old 26-03-2020, 12:26 PM
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This is the advice that the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales is currently giving about rotation.


Looks hopeful, John.



Quote:
We have had many questions asking if workers can be moved in and out of being furloughed if work becomes available to an employer and then ceases again? This has yet to be clarified, but we consider it very likely that they will. The scheme is being designed to allow for flexibility so that furloughed staff can be brought back to work to replace those still working who later become sick. We anticipate that this will be seen as difficult to regulate an anticipate that a minimum period of furlough leave may be built in as a requirement before the person van return to work. So we anticipate that the rules will specifically make provision for Where employees agree to share shifts to enable more of them to continue to be paid.
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  #107  
Old 26-03-2020, 12:26 PM
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In the meantime, I've set my own guidelines: Gas and water leaks with boiler breakdowns, or loss of hot water for hygiene purposes. Pretty much everything else can wait.

I'm hopeful this evening's press conference will explain a system that will tide us over in the short term, just praying it's not too convoluted. Keep it simple and straight forward now, and it should be easier to work out later when the books go in for that financial year.
I have lots of sympathy for you, and also some for the government. It is very difficult to have middle ground.

I honestly think the simplest thing is have universal income of 1000 for every adult in the country and then tax everyone 50% on the first penny earned and 75% over 30k. (or something similar)

Any there just isn't any straight forward solutions and whatever solution is provided will have massive faults and loopholes.

I wonder if the most sensible course of action for you would be to, claim 100% but then if you had emergency work do it for free, and let the customer buy any parts needed themselves.
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  #108  
Old 26-03-2020, 12:27 PM
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This is the advice that the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales is currently giving about rotation.


Looks hopeful, John.
Thanks Maz
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  #109  
Old 26-03-2020, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palaceporky View Post
I have heard lots of people saying that banks are insisting that you use your house as collateral for thebusiness interruption loan scheme, so avoiding the government 'we will cover 80% of the loan'.

Also confusion if wages are processed at 80% of the normal figure and then if HMRC will then only payback 80% of the 80%.
I have only seen that on here, but the personal guarantee involving the property could be for the 20% not covered by the .Gov.

I have also read that each bank has been given a percentage of loans that they can claim for if the business defaults. So they are going to be pretty selective.
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  #110  
Old 26-03-2020, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by palaceporky View Post
I have heard lots of people saying that banks are insisting that you use your house as collateral for the business interruption loan scheme, so avoiding the government 'we will cover 80% of the loan'.

Also confusion if wages are processed at 80% of the normal figure and then if HMRC will then only payback 80% of the 80%.
Unbelievable! or rather not, ******* typical. Banks really are scum of the earth. How many of their top employees lost their homes when they crashed the world 12 years ago? a crash they profited from and we are still paying for.

I so hope this isn't true and just a few one-off mistakes, but on the other hand it is typical behaviour from those greedy-uncaring-want-it-both-ways scum bags
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  #111  
Old 26-03-2020, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by palaceporky View Post
Also confusion if wages are processed at 80% of the normal figure and then if HMRC will then only payback 80% of the 80%.
That won't happen. But I think people are forgetting NI etc.


This illustration I received may be helpful.



XX Ltd employs Mr A at an annual salary of 24,000, so 2,000 per month. Mr A has opted out of auto enrolment.


Each month, Mr A currently receives net pay of 1,665 which is after deducting PAYE of 191 and employees NIC of 144. On this salary, the employer pays employers' NIC of 174.


The available grant for the employer is the lower of
(a) 80% of (2,000 + 174), and
(b) 2,500


So a grant of 1,739.
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  #112  
Old 26-03-2020, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
April portal date was always talked about. (And you know how wonderful government IT is).


I would be amazed if it's open by mid-April (which is not impossible), and even more astonished if payments do not lag a few weeks behind.
I still think having a reverse tax code so that everyone gets 1000 in their wages (and then taxed to ****ery thereafter) would have been simpler to implement and in some ways fairer, but I am sure they modelled millions of options and are hoping loads won't claim.

But say I had an employee earning 3k a month. If I told them you are going to work part time and I will only pay 1.8k a month but you get 1k a month from the government on top of that so it aint that bad, is that scenario better or worse than to keep the business afloat I am going to pay you 2,800 and claim 80% of that back off the government but tell the employee they musn't do anything whatsoever.

Anyway, the government are at least trying to provide workable solutions, none are going to be perfect
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  #113  
Old 26-03-2020, 01:30 PM
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As referred to earlier, this is the most complete guide I have seen. The source is credible, so likely to be more or less right:

To view the link you have to Register or Login
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  #114  
Old 26-03-2020, 01:51 PM
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I ma stuck between a rock and hard place I was employed until 13/2 now self employed or sole director of a company, business completely shut down no income stream available at all no clients paying invoices all I am posting is negatives on my ledger and unlikely to be able to claim a penny.

What I dont understand is that universal credit is means tested which is the only possible thing I can get, yet the furlonged payments are not.

I could be a logistics manager for a pub chain earning 150k and sitting in my mortgage free 500k house with 100k in the bank and my employer can claim 2.5k per month for my wages. On the other hand I could be the director of a carpentry firm only employing me and unable to work and have re mortgaged for a new kitchen and still have that money in the bank and not be eligible for anything as it would count as savings. Of course the carpenter will be paying additional tax in the future to repay the money the government has borrowed
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  #115  
Old 26-03-2020, 02:11 PM
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I ma stuck between a rock and hard place I was employed until 13/2 now self employed or sole director of a company, business completely shut down no income stream available at all no clients paying invoices all I am posting is negatives on my ledger and unlikely to be able to claim a penny.

What I dont understand is that universal credit is means tested which is the only possible thing I can get, yet the furlonged payments are not.

I could be a logistics manager for a pub chain earning 150k and sitting in my mortgage free 500k house with 100k in the bank and my employer can claim 2.5k per month for my wages. On the other hand I could be the director of a carpentry firm only employing me and unable to work and have re mortgaged for a new kitchen and still have that money in the bank and not be eligible for anything as it would count as savings. Of course the carpenter will be paying additional tax in the future to repay the money the government has borrowed

That's awful, between a rock and hard place is exactly where you are. You have my every sympathy
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  #116  
Old 26-03-2020, 03:51 PM
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This is an email explain the Furlongh to a friend from their accountant it does not apply to me but it is pretty clear and may help someone but please dont blame the messenger

Rules as set out in official statements

1) Furloughed members of staff must not work for the employer during the period of furlough.

2) Furlough is from 1 March 2020, so is to be backdated. It will last for at least 3 months and will be extended if necessary. Note that while the scheme is backdated to the beginning of March as it is intended to support all those employed then, a firm will only be eligible to claim the grant once they have agreed the furlough with their staff and staff have stopped working for the employer. This will of course be subject to employment law in the usual way.

3) It is available to employees on the payroll at 29 February 2020.

4) All UK businesses are eligible, 'any employer on the country, small or large, charitable or non-profit' to use the Chancellor's words.

5) The scheme pays a grant (not a loan) to the employer.

6) The grant will be paid to the employer through a new online system which is being built for this purpose.

7) The employer will pay the employee through payroll, using the Real Time Information (RTI) system as usual, as required by the employment contract. This contract may be renegotiated but that is a matter for employment law. So RTI system reporting of payroll will continue as normal.

8) Scheme will be administered by HMRC:

• Relevant employees must be designated as furloughed employees.
• Employers will submit information to HMRC through a new online portal.
• As this will take time to build, businesses should look to the Coronavirus Business Interruption Loan Scheme to support cash flow in the meantime. The narrative used in the information released so far says ‘if your employer cannot cover staff costs due to COVID-19 they may be able to access support…’. This is a conditional phrase which may relate to existing funds available to the employer. We do not yet know how these might be determined, nor whether there is a bar of some description.

9) Maximum grant will be calculated per employee and is the lower of:

• 80% of ‘wages’. The notes published so far, use the phrase ‘wage for all employment costs up to a cap of 2,500 per month’. It is our understanding that this includes employers' NIC and pension contributions. Wages will be determined by reference to a defined period (yet to be announced).
• 2,500 per month.

Example

X Ltd employs Mr A at an annual salary of 24,000, so 2,000 per month. Mr A has opted out of auto enrolment.

Each month, Mr A currently receives net pay of 1,665 which is after deducting PAYE of 191 and employees NIC of 144. On this salary, the employer pays employers' NIC of 174.

The available grant for the employer is the lower of:

(a) 80% of (2,000 + 174), and
(b) 2,500
So a grant of 1,739.

The cash required by X Ltd to furlough based on maintaining the existing salary is 435 per month. It is a matter for employment law whether the employer is required to pay this top up. Discussions with employees may have agreed that the employee has agreed to a different arrangement during their furlough.

Attached to this link is further guidance setting out an extended illustration that includes auto enrolment and provides an example of what to do if your business has been instructed to close by the government. It also provides fuller details on eligibility.

Potential legal issues

Employment law is complicated and you should seek advice from a legal expert where necessary. We have been advised of the following points that you should check before taking any action.

You may not have a contractual right to lay staff off without pay
If you just send employees home because there is insufficient work, your employees should continue to be paid. If they are not paid or there is no contractual right to send them home in the absence of work, then you could face claims for the unpaid wages (breach of contract or unlawful deduction from wages claims) and potentially constructive dismissal claims at some point in the future.

What do I do if my contracts of employment don’t include the appropriate clauses?
If you don’t have the contractual right to place staff on temporary leave you will need their consent before you place staff on furlough leave. If you unilaterally place your employees on furlough leave, you run the risk of a constructive dismissal claim, (right now the risk of a claim may be low when the alternative is possibly the loss of their job entirely).

Note: Unless you have the right to reduce pay during a period of temporary leave, then you are also obliged to make up any shortfall, and continue benefits during any period of furlough, unless your staff agree to reduced pay (e.g. as an alternative to redundancy).

As mentioned previously, this is the current understanding of the scheme. When more information become available we will send out further correspondence.
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  #117  
Old 26-03-2020, 04:16 PM
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Sorry, should have put this on this thread.

Actually apologies to HPALACE. I've just had an email from the DMA (Direct Marketing Association). They too are saying the banks are being quite demanding over the loans. Here is the key bit.

Dear All,

Many of you will have been counting on the Coronavirus Business Interruption Scheme announced last week to secure cash flow to help your company survive the current crisis.

The DMA have begun hearing that banks are being quite difficult, including charging high interest rates after the initial 12 month no interest period and often requiring personal guarantees from company owners. I require evidence by 4.30 PM today positive or negative to feed into DCMS.
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Old 26-03-2020, 05:39 PM
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Sorry, should have put this on this thread.

Actually apologies to HPALACE. I've just had an email from the DMA (Direct Marketing Association). They too are saying the banks are being quite demanding over the loans. Here is the key bit.

Dear All,

Many of you will have been counting on the Coronavirus Business Interruption Scheme announced last week to secure cash flow to help your company survive the current crisis.

The DMA have begun hearing that banks are being quite difficult, including charging high interest rates after the initial 12 month no interest period and often requiring personal guarantees from company owners. I require evidence by 4.30 PM today positive or negative to feed into DCMS.
This the 2nd time I have read this, makes my blood boil.

We bailed the banks out, they profited, the people suffered. This time the government are trying to bail out the people, but yet again its the banks that profit.

Did any senior bankers have to forfeit their homes? Cnuts
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  #119  
Old 26-03-2020, 05:45 PM
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Can anyone answer this please?

If your average profit over the last three years is slightly higher than the 50,000...say 51,000, does that mean you'll get 80% of a maximum of 50,000...or if your average is over 50,000 (even by 1000) then you get nothing ?
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Old 26-03-2020, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisophiex View Post
Can anyone answer this please?

If your average profit over the last three years is slightly higher than the 50,000...say 51,000, does that mean you'll get 80% of a maximum of 50,000...or if your average is over 50,000 (even by 1000) then you get nothing ?
The detail is to be released, but the feeling on the LinkedIn thread by Dave Chaplin is that your average profit over three years would need to be under 50k to be able to access the scheme. Any more than that and you cannot access it.

Never mind, it will be available by June; don't worry if you'll run out of cash before then.

Nice IR35 reference at the end of his diatribe.
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