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  #12681  
Old 22-01-2022, 11:08 AM
Philipw Philipw is offline
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Is it me or does the blackmail stuff come across as a bit ridiculous?

It seems to divert from the really serious stuff.
Agree. Grey line between bullying, blackmail and whipping anyway.
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  #12682  
Old 22-01-2022, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Philipw View Post
Agree. Grey line between bullying, blackmail and whipping anyway.
There is no grey line when an MP is specifically told to back bill x or not put in a letter or his/her constituency will not get a new school after all. That is corruption. While provable briefing of the press on untrue stories of alcoholism or affairs etc is libel or slander (not sure of which one).

Arm twisting etc has always gone on, but it is appearing that this administration has gone way beyond that.

Wragg was very careful to make the allegations outside of the Chamber, which means parliamentary privilege does not apply so police can intervene.
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  #12683  
Old 22-01-2022, 11:13 AM
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Seriously? .... then might as well allow lobbyists to pay MP's !! ... and might as well forget about any "red lines". If the claims of withholding public money for needed investment in local schools are proven then to me that is as bad as any other form of coercion or payments for influence.
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  #12684  
Old 22-01-2022, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Twiggy View Post
Seriously? .... then might as well allow lobbyists to pay MP's !! ... and might as well forget about any "red lines". If the claims of withholding public money for needed investment in local schools are proven then to me that is as bad as any other form of coercion or payments for influence.
Agreed. Recognising that similar behaviours which are common in society (and especially in the workplace) and which don't necessarily cross red lines isn't an argument to say that this is "over the top / nothing to see here".

I've dealt with many types and levels of bullying, coercive and manipulative behaviours - personally, professionally and as someone acting and supporting on other's behalves; three times to the extent that they came to court (and I've always caught the b*stards - not that they knew it until the case came falling down on their heads), but I've never dealt with anyone who didn't present in a generally predictable way (complex, but predictable if your analysis is good enough).

My latter point is usually the one people use implicitly when making the "over the top" argument (not that they're necessarily aware that they're doing so), because they recognise that the patterns of behaviour are, to all extents and purposes, so similar as to be classed as "the same".

Nonetheless, that argument fails to take account of the severity and outcomes which are palpably different - as demarcated by "red lines".

In this case, we should not be so dismissive as to diregard what was used for leverage... public money, not personal indemnity, security or rights.

This is actually far worse than blackmailing someone on the basis of, for example, their homosexuality in the past, because the target is the MP's sense of integrity rather than what is deemed (at the tiime) as a lack of integrity.

So, the two issues are:

1) this was done as a way of undermining integrity in MPs, not as a way to uncover a perceived lack of integrity (even though blackmail is wrong either way and at any level)

2) if the MP held their integrity, the threatened result was to remove (our) public funding from where it was targetted to go

There's no "over the top" argument that stands up to any scrutiny here.
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  #12685  
Old 22-01-2022, 12:37 PM
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Another excellent leader column in the FT today calling time on Johnson.
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  #12686  
Old 22-01-2022, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila_17 View Post
Agreed. Recognising that similar behaviours which are common in society (and especially in the workplace) and which don't necessarily cross red lines isn't an argument to say that this is "over the top / nothing to see here".

I've dealt with many types and levels of bullying, coercive and manipulative behaviours - personally, professionally and as someone acting and supporting on other's behalves; three times to the extent that they came to court (and I've always caught the b*stards - not that they knew it until the case came falling down on their heads), but I've never dealt with anyone who didn't present in a generally predictable way (complex, but predictable if your analysis is good enough).

My latter point is usually the one people use implicitly when making the "over the top" argument (not that they're necessarily aware that they're doing so), because they recognise that the patterns of behaviour are, to all extents and purposes, so similar as to be classed as "the same".

Nonetheless, that argument fails to take account of the severity and outcomes which are palpably different - as demarcated by "red lines".

In this case, we should not be so dismissive as to diregard what was used for leverage... public money, not personal indemnity, security or rights.

This is actually far worse than blackmailing someone on the basis of, for example, their homosexuality in the past, because the target is the MP's sense of integrity rather than what is deemed (at the tiime) as a lack of integrity.

So, the two issues are:

1) this was done as a way of undermining integrity in MPs, not as a way to uncover a perceived lack of integrity (even though blackmail is wrong either way and at any level)

2) if the MP held their integrity, the threatened result was to remove (our) public funding from where it was targetted to go

There's no "over the top" argument that stands up to any scrutiny here.
I think thatís a good post. I guess that bullying by Tory MPs seems a given to me. But yes doesnít make it less wrong. I also think itís standard for governments to put funding where it politically benefits them. Thatís totally wrong, and why I oppose capitalism. But I guess youíre right that it crosses a further line in doing that as leverage on individual MPs.

On reflection I was wrong to post what I did. Thanks for the post.
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  #12687  
Old 22-01-2022, 02:22 PM
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I didnít realise she is 46 she looks older than that.

Crikey I think someone doctored Wikipedia to avoid any ID thefts
She's only a year older than you and me Raze, but then for us the years have been kind..

As someone said, it's a Tory thing, they are all old before their time.
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  #12688  
Old 22-01-2022, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Is it me or does the blackmail stuff come across as a bit ridiculous?

It seems to divert from the really serious stuff.
Whilst I expect it's true, I doubt anything will be done, at all.

Dark arts by the whips have been going on since year dot, it could backfire in that it may strengthen the resolve of some to post their letters.

Guess it all depends on Lady Jane Gray..
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  #12689  
Old 22-01-2022, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gold76 View Post
Whilst I expect it's true, I doubt anything will be done, at all.

Dark arts by the whips have been going on since year dot, it could backfire in that it may strengthen the resolve of some to post their letters.
Well yes ; but this is the first time that it has been explicitly linked with "do this or your constituents will suffer" (although it featured a lot in Yes Minister). That is for me a key difference.
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  #12690  
Old 22-01-2022, 02:54 PM
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  #12691  
Old 22-01-2022, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gold76 View Post
Whilst I expect it's true, I doubt anything will be done, at all.

Dark arts by the whips have been going on since year dot, it could backfire in that it may strengthen the resolve of some to post their letters.

Guess it all depends on Lady Jane Gray..
The dark arts have always been the direct manipulation and coercion of elected representatives of the people to follow party lines. It's not really a grey area, it's an accepted distortion of democratic process. They grey area is really around who legal it is, not how ethical it is.

Just because something isn't illegal doesn't mean it's ethically or morally right
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  #12692  
Old 22-01-2022, 08:41 PM
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  #12693  
Old 22-01-2022, 08:41 PM
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Sue grey now investigating parties at the 10 Downing Street flat which Carrie and the PM attended
Williamson was the one that threatened the defected
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Minister sacked as she was a Muslim

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  #12694  
Old 22-01-2022, 09:28 PM
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Minister sacked as she was a Muslim

Awful stuff
It was when she was told her "Muslimness" was an issue, and then that she wasn't doing enough to defend the party from accusations of Islamophobia. I mean wtf?
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  #12695  
Old 22-01-2022, 09:29 PM
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  #12696  
Old 22-01-2022, 09:29 PM
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How does the public think parties whip the vote? With an actual whip?
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  #12697  
Old 22-01-2022, 09:31 PM
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How does the public think parties whip the vote? With an actual whip?
I always thought tha upper class Eton types we fond of that sort of thing.
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  #12698  
Old 22-01-2022, 09:34 PM
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I always thought tha upper class Eton types we fond of that sort of thing.
Sex just isn't enough for some people
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  #12699  
Old 22-01-2022, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Blue Eagle View Post
There is no grey line when an MP is specifically told to back bill x or not put in a letter or his/her constituency will not get a new school after all. That is corruption. While provable briefing of the press on untrue stories of alcoholism or affairs etc is libel or slander (not sure of which one).

Arm twisting etc has always gone on, but it is appearing that this administration has gone way beyond that.

Wragg was very careful to make the allegations outside of the Chamber, which means parliamentary privilege does not apply so police can intervene.
Thats assuming that this actually true - it may be, but it could also be threatening bluster. I am not sure many MPs cower to blackmail. It's not often (ever?) I say this but CR is right, ie this is potentially diversionary from the bigger issues at hand, in particular lack of leadership from the PM with the public. The irony is the BBS being up in arms at Tory MPs being bullied...
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  #12700  
Old 22-01-2022, 09:42 PM
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Bloody awful but why wait until now? If this had been happening to me I would be shouting from the rooftops as soon as it happened.
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