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  #61  
Old 13-02-2020, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post

Some countries are doing alright, but you generally have to compare them to countries around them. When you compare Vietnam to the UK, then no its not, compare it to other third world countries, and its doing pretty well. Similarly Cuba, its not great, but compared to other countries around them its a very different kind of poverty (ie one without the starvation, slum shacks and lack of education and opportunity).

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How capitalist or socialist is Vietnam now? There seem to be plenty of stock market companies and funds now.
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  #62  
Old 13-02-2020, 05:17 PM
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  #63  
Old 13-02-2020, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Well it is, in terms of creating the illusion that allows you to make the big mark ups. In truth, most brand marketing is really based around psychological manipulation of the customer basis to sell them something as being more than the thing itself.

That depends I think on whether a brand actually adds real value to the end experience. I find it interesting that a lot of 'protections' like the net book agreement were scrapped on the basis that it 'didn't serve consumers interests' even though the consequence was a LOT less bookshops - But brand marketing is in theory the exact opposite, its leveraging additional costs onto the consumer for a generally generic product - because of a presumed 'quality associated to the brand' that isn't qualitatively or quantitavily established.

A latte is a latte regardless of where you buy it. The actual difference in 'the experience' is for the most part a psychological phenomena. The difference between branded products and non-branded products is rarely significant or noticable.



Please note I'm talking in general here about brand marketing. Clearly it can be established that in some cases specific brands do represent higher quality - but for the most part, high street branding is about using advertising and marketing as a means of market competition, and consequently results in higher pricing on items that far exceeds the quality of the goods or the production. In many if not most cases, what you're paying extra for, absurdly, is the money spent selling the item to you in the first place.

I think there is definately a good arguement for recovering the costs spent on IP branding and marketing as a means of off writing tax. However, say, in the case of Amazon, its not about a brand - Amazon is mearly the means by which a product is delivered to you. Its a faciliator of a service. It, like many brands, doesn't actually manufacture or produce the product it sells, it simply purchases it from contracted sellers, and re-sells it.

Brands like lacost etc have been running a con on the public for decades in which cheap third world produced goods are sold at vastly inflated prices to justify massive marketing and advertising costs in 'market positioning' (Even the origins of Branding and Marketing, are based in the psychological manipulation of punters).

I'm sorry, but most of this is psycho-babble poppycock, straight from the pages of Marshall McLuhan, (and it was dated when he was writing it in the 60s).


That brands add value has been evidenced for a long time (I used to help run the company that originated the first brand valuation), not least in the absolute £age that companies are willing to pay to acquire them.



Whether that value is tangible or intangible, (what you curiously call 'psychological manipulation', in true M McL fashion, as though somehow it's all hidden subliminals) is neither here nor there : it has a genuine added asset value for shareholders. In accountancy terms, I rather think it can be summed up as 'goodwill' (the value beyond the base value of the product), but brand valuation is without doubt one of the most significant developments in manufacturing in the last 100 years.


(Your point about branding increasing the price is particularly inaccurate. In general, the more a manufacturer sells of a product, the more cheaply he is able to offer it to the market. Marketing/branding/advertising helps broaden the appeal of a product or service and thus allows for significant cost savings. Again, this has been evidenced for many decades now, and proof is not hard to find).
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  #64  
Old 13-02-2020, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
It does serve the rich but it also serves the people, just look at China, from a country with regular famine and atrocious living conditions under socialism to a world leading economy. Its capitalism that did that.

I can't think of anywhere doing great under socialism, I can think of countries that have great equality but its the equality of having nothing. Even then some are more equal than others.
There was famine and atrocities before Mao, and its hardly capitalism now. The communist party rule the country.
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  #65  
Old 13-02-2020, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
I think capitalism will continue to serve the super rich in bigger and bigger numbers. It's the problem for social democracy. And why I think we need to get rid of capitlaism for socialism.
The number of billionaires has doubled since the billionaires took the world down and were bailed out after. We’re all in it together.
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  #66  
Old 13-02-2020, 07:10 PM
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Is the UK going to become a dodgy island tax haven?
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  #67  
Old 13-02-2020, 07:17 PM
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Is the UK going to become a dodgy island tax haven?
It's the "Will of the people"
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  #68  
Old 13-02-2020, 07:36 PM
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I doubt there will be too many UK corporate cuts as, for example, the government has postponed the proposed corporation tax cut from 19% to 17%. We won’t be able to compete with Ireland in that area. We will probably increase grants and incentives for research, science and environmentalism instead. Possibly small business tax cuts too.
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  #69  
Old 14-02-2020, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
It does serve the rich but it also serves the people, just look at China, from a country with regular famine and atrocious living conditions under socialism to a world leading economy. Its capitalism that did that.

I can't think of anywhere doing great under socialism, I can think of countries that have great equality but its the equality of having nothing. Even then some are more equal than others.
Yes yes because it's one or the other.

Honestly your understanding of economic systems is remedial. Before the internet we wouldn't have to hear it.
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  #70  
Old 14-02-2020, 01:19 PM
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How capitalist or socialist is Vietnam now? There seem to be plenty of stock market companies and funds now.
Quite a bit, but its certainly true they've embraced capitalism to some extent and degree
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  #71  
Old 14-02-2020, 01:20 PM
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Is the UK going to become a dodgy island tax haven?
For some, yes. Somehow I don't see that being most of us benefiting from being a tax haven
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  #72  
Old 14-02-2020, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
I'm sorry, but most of this is psycho-babble poppycock, straight from the pages of Marshall McLuhan, (and it was dated when he was writing it in the 60s).


That brands add value has been evidenced for a long time (I used to help run the company that originated the first brand valuation), not least in the absolute £age that companies are willing to pay to acquire them.



Whether that value is tangible or intangible, (what you curiously call 'psychological manipulation', in true M McL fashion, as though somehow it's all hidden subliminals) is neither here nor there : it has a genuine added asset value for shareholders. In accountancy terms, I rather think it can be summed up as 'goodwill' (the value beyond the base value of the product), but brand valuation is without doubt one of the most significant developments in manufacturing in the last 100 years.


(Your point about branding increasing the price is particularly inaccurate. In general, the more a manufacturer sells of a product, the more cheaply he is able to offer it to the market. Marketing/branding/advertising helps broaden the appeal of a product or service and thus allows for significant cost savings. Again, this has been evidenced for many decades now, and proof is not hard to find).
It depends on what you determine to be the intrinsic nature of value. Does a brand add the the function, quality or fundamental nature of the product - not at all, it presents an empherial value, that only exists because of the processes involved with marketing and advertising that product.

An object cannot be improved by the association of a hyperthetical concept, except psychologically.

When we associate the concept of quality with its financial return, we end up in a situation which runs counter to the philsophical natures of value and quality - Which are broader.

When I use the term manipulation, I don't necessarily mean it in a sense of cyncial or directive subversion, but in terms of affecting sociological and psychological influence over wants and desires. There may be a better more neutral term.

Now I do understand entirely where you are coming from, in terms of the market and retail (as an example) brand has an immense importance in relation to value - but this isn't actually a real thing, its more a product of the hypereal sense of existance. Just like a 10k watch isn't 10,000 times better at telling the time than a one pound watch. It represents a percieved value, that is artifically created (through psychological and sociological manipulation)/

Does the brand or marketing improve the product in a quantifiable or measureable way (I would say for the most part, it doesn't). When you market yourself as 'Seattle's Best Coffee' (a brand I saw yesterday) you're selling an image, a dream or an association that is not inherent in the product.

In fact in many cases the product itself has no basis in intrinsic reality of production by the company sellling it. In the example of fashion or coffee - The company neither produces the clothing, nor the bean - it simply serves as an outlet.

In your last paragraph, I would hasten to add that this generally isn't the experienced reality of branding. In a lot of cases we're talking about goods that are manufactured for a very low price, that when they come to retail have a considerable mark up - Most notably in fashion as a example. There is not a significant variation in quality between high street fashion brands other than that which is percieved by the purchaser.

Branding / Marketing is not about the quality or superior nature of the product (in most cases) its about market positioning and influencing the end purchaser - as such its a manipulation.

Its not always true, but I believe that we are fooling ourselves when we talk about the value of brands as being a real intrinsic thing, rather than a hyperthetical construct produced largely by marketing and advertising. And it may very well be true in some cases that the branded product is scientifically demonstrable to be superior to other products, but that isn't actually down to the brand, but the product itself.
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  #73  
Old 14-02-2020, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
My issue with it is that its Starbucks licensing the IP to... Starbucks.

I'm sure someone can justify it from an accounting or legal perspective, but morally it's one company charging itself money to avoid tax.
My problem is more with the idea of the term intellectual in reference to coffee and sandwiches...
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  #74  
Old 14-02-2020, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post

Whether that value is tangible or intangible, (what you curiously call 'psychological manipulation', in true M McL fashion, as though somehow it's all hidden subliminals) is neither here nor there : it has a genuine added asset value for shareholders. In accountancy terms, I rather think it can be summed up as 'goodwill' (the value beyond the base value of the product), but brand valuation is without doubt one of the most significant developments in manufacturing in the last 100 years.

Tangible and intangible issues are interesting. Having developed magazine 'brands' I have never been able to put an intangible value to them on a balance sheet, despite request to accountancy types to do so.

However once you sell or buy one of these 'developed brands' they immediately have a balance sheet value. Obviously the big FMCG companies' balance sheets are entirely made up of intangible and tangible assets based on the brands they own, either through development or acquisition.

There is no disputing that brands add incredible value for owners and shareholders. I think Dogstar's point is do they add anything to the consumer apart from added cost from marketing, advertising, packaging, etc, and a physcological construct?

I would add they do, even if it is physcological. The status that brands add to people is enormous. Whether that be men and women showing they 'have' by sporting Rolex watches or Louis Vuiton handbags, teenagers buying particular trainers to fit in, or knobs like me showing 'I know' by drinking a particular obscure fine Scotch. This quest for demonstrable status is inherent in humans and has been so from the dawn of bead wearing time.

However, Dogstar is also right, in there is nothing inherent in Rolex or Louis Vuiton that is particularly more helpful for having access to accurate time or carrying around everyday items than say the time on your phone or a basic knapsack.
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  #75  
Old 14-02-2020, 02:35 PM
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Tangible and intangible issues are interesting. Having developed magazine 'brands' I have never been able to put an intangible value to them on a balance sheet, despite request to accountancy types to do so..

They're right, but I understand your dilemma : how to quantify the asset value. I have worked with valuing newspaper brands (not magazines) and one of the main reasons that they sell generally for far more than their simple asset value is because of pure intangibles, such as trust and reputation (that account for regular readership, and/or higher advertising rates). How to measure these intangibles is another matter, but it's not impossible, and has been done many times. You might find such an exercise doubles your balance sheet wealth!


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However, Dogstar is also right, in there is nothing inherent in Rolex or Louis Vuiton that is particularly more helpful for having access to accurate time or carrying around everyday items than say the time on your phone or a basic knapsack.

He's only right if he is asserting that people only seek function from what they own. And most things provide more than mere function, (which is why there are several thousand brands of motor vehicle in the world).



I would argue that there is no such thing as absolute £ value ; all £values are derived from the simple proposition of what people want to pay.
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  #76  
Old 14-02-2020, 02:49 PM
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But companies are still choosing to register that brand value etc in the most tax efficient jurisdiction so they are in effect using tax arbitrage even if not tax avoidance. Right now, if each country in, say, the European Union has a different set of tax incentives then within a single or free market a multinational can declare different parts of its cost and asset base in the most appropriate country. Therefore, the multinationals with the best lawyers, lobbyists and accountants will always be the most able to game the system.
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Old 14-02-2020, 03:10 PM
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My problem is more with the idea of the term intellectual in reference to coffee and sandwiches...
What about bakewell tart, the thinking man's cake?
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Old 14-02-2020, 03:17 PM
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What about bakewell tart, the thinking man's cake?
Showing your age there, old chap.
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Old 14-02-2020, 03:25 PM
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So I am. What about something off the a la Descartes menu?
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Old 14-02-2020, 03:27 PM
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So I am. What about something off the a la Descartes menu?
I eat therefore I am?
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