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  #31121  
Old 12-06-2019, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
Well the Ottomans controlled the levant for nearly 400 years, and aside from the Naqib al-Ashraf revolt and Egypt getting a little tasty for a little bit of the nineteenth century, it couldn’t really be described as “war” until WW1. It has been exceptionally shit since then, certainly.
Yes it was all peace under Salim the Grim.
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  #31122  
Old 12-06-2019, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
You’ve got it all mixed up. I don’t think people should have to justify what they’ve done or not. Not if someone like Heb is gonna start making comments to others about what they’ve said or done on issues, then expect to be asked in return.

As for campaigning yes I think it makes a difference, even if only in small ways. Solidarity medical aid for instance is a good thing.
Many people donate to charities for war torn countries myself included, but I don't feel the need to elevate myself to superhero status or expect my opinion on things to matter more because of it . We all do that because we are human, and not as a stick to beat people with because we oppose a country or it's policies . Labour are absolutely obsessed with with Palestine, and Israel, to the point where signal virtuing blurs their focus on matters closer to their voters hearts . If you think seeing pictures of corbyn sucking in praise from Hammas is endearing and vote catching think again.
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Last edited by strolling bones; 12-06-2019 at 05:00 PM.
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  #31123  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ebyeeckeagle View Post
And?

How does that stop us considering just why the Palestine/Israel issue has become THE main foreign policy/human rights focus of the current day Labour Party (it has been for a long while for a certain strata but this is more widespread now)? Almost to the exclusion of anything else, beyond lip service.
The answer isn’t to do less on Palestine, it’s to do more on other things. The Israeli state is currently keeping millions either in a prison camp or an apartheid state.
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  #31124  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
Many people donate to charities for war torn countries myself included, but I don't feel the need to elevate myself to superhero status or expect my opinion on things to matter more because of it . We all do that because we are human, and not as a stick to beat people with because we oppose a country or it's policies . Labour are absolutely obsessed with with Palestine, and Israel, to the point where signal virtuing blurs their focus on matters closer to their voters hearts . If you think seeing pictures of corbyn sucking in praise from Hammas is endearing and vote catching think again.
Again you’re missing the point. If you are gonna castigate others for not raising other issues, then you should expect people to ask what you’ve done. If it’s jack shit then don’t give it the high and mighty.
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  #31125  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Percy Dalton View Post
BBC Radio 5 Live
✔ @bbc5live



A blunt assessment by Labour MP Lisa Nandy, who says she's not sure the party "can survive".

She tells @EmmaBarnett a meeting of MPs on Monday was “terrible” and she worries the "coalition" of different views can't hold together.To view the link you have to Register or Login
Lisa Nandy should be the leader or in a very senior role.
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  #31126  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:32 PM
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Re Israel you spend five minutes there and you realise the problem. Water, or the lack of it.
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  #31127  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by weltklasse View Post
Could it be a latent strain of anti americanism as well in the labour party?
I think so. Dormant for while, awakened under the ****wit (Trump I mean, not Jez).
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  #31128  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
The answer isn’t to do less on Palestine, it’s to do more on other things. The Israeli state is currently keeping millions either in a prison camp or an apartheid state.
Absolutely. But the party nor members dont. That's the truth.
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  #31129  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by weltklasse View Post
Could it be a latent strain of anti americanism as well in the labour party?
Definately i’d say.
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  #31130  
Old 12-06-2019, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
The answer isn’t to do less on Palestine, it’s to do more on other things. The Israeli state is currently keeping millions either in a prison camp or an apartheid state.
The answer is to crack down ruthlessly on anti semitism close to home and be seen to do so in a vigorous manner ,and to campaign for justice and equal rights in the middle east
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  #31131  
Old 12-06-2019, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weltklasse View Post

There are usually Tibetan protests in Europe when Chinese delegations arrive.
Not with the protesters screaming about a “Sinoist conspiracy” that runs the banks/media ect, not protests and a movement that make British Chinese who have nothing to do with the CCP feel unsafe and consider emigrating, not with people who’ve murdered innocent Chinese in the name of Tibet being fawned over and arse licked by a potential future PM.

Last edited by Skin Up; 12-06-2019 at 09:47 PM.
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  #31132  
Old 12-06-2019, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by legaleagle2 View Post
The answer is to crack down ruthlessly on anti semitism close to home and be seen to do so in a vigorous manner ,and to campaign for justice and equal rights in the middle east
Yes which would involve the right of return to Israel.
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  #31133  
Old 13-06-2019, 04:36 AM
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Are Rastafarians entitled to self determination and a Homeland in Ethiopia?

Are Sikhs entitled to a homeland entitled to self determination and a homeland, Khalistan in the Punjab?

Are Kashmiris entitled to self determination and a homeland? Yes, in international law they are. (UN resolution for a plebiscite)

Then there are Uighurs and Tibetans being flooded out of their lands in China. Saharaouiris wanting their country, Armenians, Kurds, Zorastrians and all sorts of African people who want the right to a homeland and self determination.

Not easy to say.

Through history it is hard to think of a minority that has suffered such consistent abuse, discriminations, restrictions, evictions and outright progroms and genocidal action against them as the Jews.

That even today after what they suffered that people talk about secret networks controlling the media, Hollywood, banks and all sorts of vile conspiracies is disgusting.

Even in the UK Jewish cemeteries are disfigured and synagogues attacked. Anti-Semitism is real and there are clear and evident cases of it in the Labour party.

But despite the legal and moral case for the state of Israel, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists against the wishes of the indigenous people many of whom have been exiled and not allowed the right to return in a horrible echo of what has happened throughout history to Jewish people.

I think that has to be discussed and it is not racist to discuss whether Jewish rights trump Palestinian ones to see what sort of accomodation can be reached.

What is obvious is there isn't a perfect solution which will give everyone everything they want and to be honest probably deserve.

I can make an inarguable moral and legal case for the state of Israel, trouble is I can also make and arguable moral and legal case for the rights of Palestinians.

In my opinion only if both sides and international and regional powerbrokers start from that position will the enormous compromises that all will have to make can life be made better and ultimately secure.

Despite Heb's perpetual judge and jury act it is
not anti-Semitic to hold this point of view.

Salaam, Shalom
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  #31134  
Old 13-06-2019, 07:58 AM
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When I was growing up in the mean streets of South Croydon in the 70s I was exposed to a lot of jewish writing and thus indirectly to Jewish (or at least Jewish-American) culture.

Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Salinger, Leon Uris, Joseph Heller, Norman Mailer, Woody Allen, Dorothy Parker, Philp Roth, Peter S Beagle, Howard Jacobson, even Ayn Rand. Batman & Superman were Jewish creations. Basically I was immersed in Jewish American culture which was rich and varied and fascinating. But I went to a Catholic primary school and then another as secondary school so it was all pretty indirect.

But you can't do all that reading without at least developing a feel for the post Apocalyptic feel of being Jewish. I understand why Israel was established, I've been there and I can recall Tel Aviv being pelted with long distance bombs not long after I was there.

I don't think I'm anti-Semitic but I have some ideas about Jewish culture that I gleaned from all that reading which probably amounts to prejudice - but a fondness and respect. I don't want Israel to cease to exist, or be conquered, or attacked.

The Arab-Jew conflict over Palestine has been going on all my life though. Doesn't look like it is going to change - neither side is going to annihilate each other, I sincerely hope.

Somebody asked whether Jeremy Corbyn is anti-American. I obviously don't know but if he's like me he has a post cold war distrust of nukes, CIA dark arts interference overseas, and hawkish approach to settling disputes with bombs & cruise missiles. But if he's like me he is also steeped in US culture to the point where it almost a shared experience.

I agree with those on this thread that say that to associate being Jewish with rapacious, foreclosing bankers, moneylenders and shady international brokers is beyond iffy. It's dangerous and we've seen where that leads.

But is that the same as decrying trump for recognising Jerusalem as the capital of israel and risking the admittedly dubious peace?

More to the point of the thread, if I suggest that the attacks on Corbyn are politically motivated, and it's clear to me that some of those attacks are coming from right wing Jewish representative groups - then am I being antisemitic? I know Heb will say so, and certain trolls will have a poke too.

I can see the danger of demonising being Jewish (I'm not blind, stupid and completely unaware of history) but in my mind criticising the actions of Israel and its agents is not that. Unless you are suggesting that any criticism is so risky because of history that it must be avoided.

And if we avoid opposing those things that the Israeli state is doing in Gaza because of such sensitivity, what becomes of the Palestinians and how will the cycle of conflict ever end?
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  #31135  
Old 13-06-2019, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
Are Rastafarians entitled to self determination and a Homeland in Ethiopia?

Are Sikhs entitled to a homeland entitled to self determination and a homeland, Khalistan in the Punjab?

Are Kashmiris entitled to self determination and a homeland? Yes, in international law they are. (UN resolution for a plebiscite)

Then there are Uighurs and Tibetans being flooded out of their lands in China. Saharaouiris wanting their country, Armenians, Kurds, Zorastrians and all sorts of African people who want the right to a homeland and self determination.

Not easy to say.

Through history it is hard to think of a minority that has suffered such consistent abuse, discriminations, restrictions, evictions and outright progroms and genocidal action against them as the Jews.

That even today after what they suffered that people talk about secret networks controlling the media, Hollywood, banks and all sorts of vile conspiracies is disgusting.

Even in the UK Jewish cemeteries are disfigured and synagogues attacked. Anti-Semitism is real and there are clear and evident cases of it in the Labour party.

But despite the legal and moral case for the state of Israel, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists against the wishes of the indigenous people many of whom have been exiled and not allowed the right to return in a horrible echo of what has happened throughout history to Jewish people.

I think that has to be discussed and it is not racist to discuss whether Jewish rights trump Palestinian ones to see what sort of accomodation can be reached.

What is obvious is there isn't a perfect solution which will give everyone everything they want and to be honest probably deserve.

I can make an inarguable moral and legal case for the state of Israel, trouble is I can also make and arguable moral and legal case for the rights of Palestinians.

In my opinion only if both sides and international and regional powerbrokers start from that position will the enormous compromises that all will have to make can life be made better and ultimately secure.

Despite Heb's perpetual judge and jury act it is
not anti-Semitic to hold this point of view.

Salaam, Shalom

Perfectly reasonable analysis.

My issue with the Labour Party hierarchy (and even some of their echoes on here) is that before they preach to others,they should have demonstrable and meaningful real zero tolerance towards prejudice on their own doorstep first.

If JC had made jibes about say people of African or Asian descent in the same way he trotted out a hoary old anti semitic trope in a speech,and had been so careless in his choice of dodgy friends and graffiti he 'liked',its inconceivable he would still be party leader.But it seems ok if he's a good anti-zionist.That is the contradiction some on here need to grapple with and the answer isn't to just trot out a litany of Israel's evils every time its raised to try and shift the issue off and onto another,as if that makes it ok, and to blame right wingers sand the media.

Get that right and Labour can campaign on the Middle East for a just solution with credibility.

Last edited by legaleagle2; 13-06-2019 at 09:08 AM.
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  #31136  
Old 13-06-2019, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Well there is a reason for that. Most Jewish people don't want to return to those countries, there is no movement around that. Where as millions of Palestinians are in camps, trapped in the Gazan prison camp or in the apartheid West Bank. But as already said it was appalling and I would happily support compensation or their right to return.

Talking of hoary old tropes or whatever you say, the classic of blaming the countries they went to, rather than Israel for not allowing the right of return is a classic one.

I think you may have misunderstood my post. The IHRA definition specifically mentions Israel when saying it is wrong to deny the self determination of Jewish people. I think that's wrong. As apart from anything else it then means supporting the right of return for Palestinians, meaning Jewish people couldn't be a majority, is then seen as anti-Semitic.

I do know what apartheid is an ideology and a lot of it revolves around the denial of anothers national rights. But the West Bank of course has all the apartheid infrastructure. Walls put up and separate roads. Of course it's apartheid.
Sorry,only just read your post You clearly don't know what apartheid was as an ideology or fully comprehend the IHRA guidelines IMHO .But you are a decent guy,coming from a 'good place' and we will have to agree to disagree on those points
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  #31137  
Old 13-06-2019, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
Are Rastafarians entitled to self determination and a Homeland in Ethiopia?

Are Sikhs entitled to a homeland entitled to self determination and a homeland, Khalistan in the Punjab?

Are Kashmiris entitled to self determination and a homeland? Yes, in international law they are. (UN resolution for a plebiscite)

Then there are Uighurs and Tibetans being flooded out of their lands in China. Saharaouiris wanting their country, Armenians, Kurds, Zorastrians and all sorts of African people who want the right to a homeland and self determination.

Not easy to say.

Through history it is hard to think of a minority that has suffered such consistent abuse, discriminations, restrictions, evictions and outright progroms and genocidal action against them as the Jews.

That even today after what they suffered that people talk about secret networks controlling the media, Hollywood, banks and all sorts of vile conspiracies is disgusting.

Even in the UK Jewish cemeteries are disfigured and synagogues attacked. Anti-Semitism is real and there are clear and evident cases of it in the Labour party.

But despite the legal and moral case for the state of Israel, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists against the wishes of the indigenous people many of whom have been exiled and not allowed the right to return in a horrible echo of what has happened throughout history to Jewish people.

I think that has to be discussed and it is not racist to discuss whether Jewish rights trump Palestinian ones to see what sort of accomodation can be reached.

What is obvious is there isn't a perfect solution which will give everyone everything they want and to be honest probably deserve.

I can make an inarguable moral and legal case for the state of Israel, trouble is I can also make and arguable moral and legal case for the rights of Palestinians.

In my opinion only if both sides and international and regional powerbrokers start from that position will the enormous compromises that all will have to make can life be made better and ultimately secure.

Despite Heb's perpetual judge and jury act it is
not anti-Semitic to hold this point of view.

Salaam, Shalom
Israel already exists. There is a material difference between a) should X be created and b) should X be destroyed.

Arguing over whether Israel, or Pakistan, or the USA should have been created is of academic interest. All of them were. But going from "they shouldn't have been created" if that is what you conclude to "we should now destroy them" is quite a leap. And it's one that people only seem obsessed about doing with the land of the Jews.

Last edited by Heb 7:4; 13-06-2019 at 10:11 AM.
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  #31138  
Old 13-06-2019, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickP View Post
When I was growing up in the mean streets of South Croydon in the 70s I was exposed to a lot of jewish writing and thus indirectly to Jewish (or at least Jewish-American) culture.

Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Salinger, Leon Uris, Joseph Heller, Norman Mailer, Woody Allen, Dorothy Parker, Philp Roth, Peter S Beagle, Howard Jacobson, even Ayn Rand. Batman & Superman were Jewish creations. Basically I was immersed in Jewish American culture which was rich and varied and fascinating. But I went to a Catholic primary school and then another as secondary school so it was all pretty indirect.

But you can't do all that reading without at least developing a feel for the post Apocalyptic feel of being Jewish. I understand why Israel was established, I've been there and I can recall Tel Aviv being pelted with long distance bombs not long after I was there.

I don't think I'm anti-Semitic but I have some ideas about Jewish culture that I gleaned from all that reading which probably amounts to prejudice - but a fondness and respect. I don't want Israel to cease to exist, or be conquered, or attacked.

The Arab-Jew conflict over Palestine has been going on all my life though. Doesn't look like it is going to change - neither side is going to annihilate each other, I sincerely hope.

Somebody asked whether Jeremy Corbyn is anti-American. I obviously don't know but if he's like me he has a post cold war distrust of nukes, CIA dark arts interference overseas, and hawkish approach to settling disputes with bombs & cruise missiles. But if he's like me he is also steeped in US culture to the point where it almost a shared experience.

I agree with those on this thread that say that to associate being Jewish with rapacious, foreclosing bankers, moneylenders and shady international brokers is beyond iffy. It's dangerous and we've seen where that leads.

But is that the same as decrying trump for recognising Jerusalem as the capital of israel and risking the admittedly dubious peace?

More to the point of the thread, if I suggest that the attacks on Corbyn are politically motivated, and it's clear to me that some of those attacks are coming from right wing Jewish representative groups - then am I being antisemitic? I know Heb will say so, and certain trolls will have a poke too.

I can see the danger of demonising being Jewish (I'm not blind, stupid and completely unaware of history) but in my mind criticising the actions of Israel and its agents is not that. Unless you are suggesting that any criticism is so risky because of history that it must be avoided.

And if we avoid opposing those things that the Israeli state is doing in Gaza because of such sensitivity, what becomes of the Palestinians and how will the cycle of conflict ever end?
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Old 13-06-2019, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
But going from "they shouldn't have been created" if that is what you conclude to "we should now destroy them" is quite leap. And it's one that people only seem obsessed about doing with the land of the Jews.
Where the **** did that bit come from? AJ said nothing of the sort.
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Old 13-06-2019, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by stevek View Post
I think you must have blinked and missed the Independent Group/Change UK.
A merging with the lib dems likely you'd assume

Not the same level of heavy hitters as back then mind..
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