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  #181  
Old 25-02-2021, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
Mainly what's wrong is that it relies on a double coincidence of wants (see Adlerhorst isn't the only one that can chuck in economics terms )

Society replaced this inefficient system with money
Darts!

I must say I've enjoyed reading Reps lead CR step-by-step to the benefit of money as a means of exchange.
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  #182  
Old 25-02-2021, 07:36 PM
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Darts!

I must say I've enjoyed reading Reps lead CR step-by-step to the benefit of money as a means of exchange.
In which case I think you have missed the whole point of why social housing is a benefit, and that more of it would be more of a benefit, and why all housing being social housing would be the biggest benefit. With all due respect to AJ, it was mostly just a series of pedantic points, while entirely ignoring the huge problems with people owning private housing, problems which make any issues he raised with social houisng pale in to insignificance.
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  #183  
Old 25-02-2021, 07:37 PM
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An interesting thread, but what makes it less interesting is the themes we are discussing have been gone over multiple times before on the BBS, and it all comes down to the same thing.

Firstly, you are looking for utopian solutions for a world containing nations with a very mixed and different set of cultures, beliefs and mindsets. You propose to move towards solutions that will be rejected out of hand in the very regions where tose solutions may have the most tangible benefits.

How do you propose installing a system of government or governance on a society where the change of power is frequently at the end of a gun or by sme group of religious extremists. How do you deal with tyrants, or long standing political leaders of countries with a vast array of nuclear weapons.

How do we make it more equitable. While it isn't correct that aid money follows arms deals or oil production, is it correct that we demand our governments send aid (of whatever kind) to countries and regimes that either corruptly syphon it off or mismanage it.

I am not defending the systems that currently exist, or where the flow of money, water, medicine, food, vaccines is centralised. In my heart, I preposterously see myself as a social capitalist or a capital socialist.

There are so many wrongs - in Africa, in Europe, in the UK, in Chile. We all know that in real terms Black Lives Matter less, and they matter less in Africa, as do those lives getting blown up in middle east market places, and other unfortunate areas of the world. Seemingly, millions of those lives matter less than the life of one poor girl who disappeared in Portugal.

We ask ourselves why the biggest players in the drug market have seemingly produced a ten year vaccine in ten months, yet millions die of malaria, AIDS and other diseases that could be treated or the problems causing those diseases could be solved in other ways if western governments /societies could be bothered.

We are rid of Trump, and we could do with being rid of a few other of the world's economic and human rights rapists. Maybe it is too late on climate.
On wars, what do you suggest - the Yanks and its allies was supposedly a force for good in Iraq and they created a much worse situation. How are they supposed to intervene there and in other hotspots without committing the same errors, and how are they supposed to not intervene. This is always against a backdrop of vetos from Russia and China. Between them they can't even solve the Taiwan situation - after 60 or 70 years of asking. And more pertinently, most of the western governments are too cowardly to even recognise Taiwan as a nation in its own right.

I don't have solutions. Like you, I have unmanageable ideas of what would make the world a better place, and in most cases these ideas seem blibdingly obvious to the layman. Does that make politicians thick, corrupt, incompetent - decades of politicians?

Some countries have good systems in place, and do their bit, but by and large they are small insignificant nations.

Whenever I argue with people about what socialism is or what it could be if done correctly in some form, they just come back with the line 'It has never worked, and is a failed system'. Many people think that, and it is nigh on impossible to change their mind to any degree. And it is these people that vote at Western elections.
While I quiet enjoyed reading this post, it is basically a long way of saying what we have is it for humanity and all the misery that comes with capitalism isn't going to go away.
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  #184  
Old 25-02-2021, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
While I quiet enjoyed reading this post, it is basically a long way of saying what we have is it for humanity and all the misery that comes with capitalism isn't going to go away.
i think you must have read a different post to what you quote.
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  #185  
Old 25-02-2021, 09:42 PM
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The trials on children have not been conducted yet?
Yes, if they don't get the ball rolling on trials soon, it will be at least 1 more school year for him in captivity.
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  #186  
Old 25-02-2021, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
In which case I think you have missed the whole point of why social housing is a benefit, and that more of it would be more of a benefit, and why all housing being social housing would be the biggest benefit. With all due respect to AJ, it was mostly just a series of pedantic points, while entirely ignoring the huge problems with people owning private housing, problems which make any issues he raised with social houisng pale in to insignificance.
Which is your opinion....

However look at history social housing in this country really only started to grow in 1920s as the answer to the homes fit for heros post WW1 and developed expanded post WW2. But it also came with jobs. Look at the success of Atlee who set in motion the new towns that I grew up in. My father left a slum in London got a job and was given a card which he took to the council who gave him a house he could only dream about in London. We moved from rooms above a hardware store opposite the gas works in Bell Green. No indoor facilities shared by three generations to what to me was luxury. Ok heating was only a coal fire but my own room indoor toilet and we had a bathroom.
For 1000s of us this was it. Yet within less than 25 years so many wanted more. History again look at the election of 79. Where did Thatcher make gains in the South the new towns. Across them Labour fell to the dream of home ownership the right to buy. In Stevenage we lost Shirley Williams a great constituency MP. To a Tory who was shall say nothing in comparison. But it was not just Stevenage there were others. The failure to use the funds raised to re new the social housing stock leads us to today. The failure to use the money from oil to reinvest in jobs but invest in ideology by Thatcher leads us to today.
Only under Blair the view in Labour prevailed workers and owners need to work together invest in jobs by the private sector in people by the state.
The state alone cannot suceed Atlee did only as a consequence of war. Long term it was doomed in terms of cost.
The individual is just that we each have differing needs desires wants we see it on this thread gym cinema room yours of a garden nice car. Mine crap car compared to yours....
Do you implement a change that suppress that for a greater good those left behind brought on. Or do you take those left behind and implement change for them to achieve. Match the aspirational desire by opportunity within the current system. I prefer the latter to your revolution.

What going back to the original post is missing is how much the poor in the world lives have improved. Dont get me wrong we have a chasm yet to close. Until 2020 you will find it has improved slowly certainly and yet it will continue to do so. Individuals like you have identified the failings. Look at the response we give as a nation to disasters around the world. Its not all greed. Look at the debate on the thread on Bill Gates or others. So do we implement a system that has failed time and again in countries across the world from Albania to Venezuela or develop the one we have to close the chasm faster. My view you know the failure of Socialism you desire is the failure to understand human nature. Suppress the free will of man you might suceed but for me not a price to pay.
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  #187  
Old 25-02-2021, 11:08 PM
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Yes, if they don't get the ball rolling on trials soon, it will be at least 1 more school year for him in captivity.
Which is an interesting point. Would I allow one of my children to volunteer in the upcoming trials for a disease that affects a minuscule % of children? Probably not. Who does actually put their kids up for stuff like this?

From your post earlier it would suggest your wife would welcome it for your child. I was a bit confused as to her complaint that it hadn’t got to your child yet given children were not on the list at all? Given the chance would you allow it, untested (or in a test environment) on your child?

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  #188  
Old 25-02-2021, 11:37 PM
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Which is an interesting point. Would I allow one of my children to volunteer in the upcoming trials for a disease that affects a minuscule % of children? Probably not. Who does actually put their kids up for stuff like this?

From your post earlier it would suggest your wife would welcome it for your child. I was a bit confused as to her complaint that it hadnít got to your child yet given children were not on the list at all? Given the chance would you allow it, untested (or in a test environment) on your child?
Interesting a question, but my child is one of the supposedly few children of his age who are as much at risk as older adults, so no, I wouldn't think it would be wise for him to be a test subject! He needs the vaccination in order to be able to safely live like other children his age.

It is not a question for me to answer, although I was reading this article earlier:

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It looks as though they are targeting mid teens for the trials.
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  #189  
Old 25-02-2021, 11:40 PM
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The bit I have never understood is why the very rich (rather than the utterly ridiculously rich) go to quite extreme lengths to avoid tax. Even if they paid the tax they still have more money than it is reasonable possible to spend over several lifetimes. Say you sell a business for £100m and if you do some funky structuring and emigrate you can keep all of it, but if you donít you still have say £70m. Why? Why bother. Does that £30m compensate you for having to emigrate to **** knows where away from everyone you care about.

Iíve never understood that.
In Tony Bloom's case, the £30m he saves can enable his football director to buy two more shit players
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  #190  
Old 25-02-2021, 11:44 PM
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Interesting a question, but my child is one of the supposedly few children of his age who are as much at risk as older adults, so no, I wouldn't think it would be wise for him to be a test subject! He needs the vaccination in order to be able to safely live like other children his age.

It is not a question for me to answer, although I was reading this article earlier:

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It looks as though they are targeting mid teens for the trials.
Yep they are and Pfizer is already safe 16 plus. Those news companies circling in on your wife earlier were not interested in the sad reality. They wanted a story and unfortunately it was a story with holes. Yeah I want your kid vaccinated before my kids but alas. Zero kids qualify right now.
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  #191  
Old 25-02-2021, 11:49 PM
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Yep they are and Pfizer is already safe 16 plus. Those news companies circling in on your wife earlier were not interested in the sad reality. They wanted a story and unfortunately it was a story with holes. Yeah I want your kid vaccinated before my kids but alas. Zero kids qualify right now.
The news here is so agenda driven it's ridiculous, which is why I advised her to be careful. The ethics of testing for children is an interesting subject though, particularly when you think back to the horrors of Thalidomide.
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  #192  
Old 26-02-2021, 12:49 AM
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While I quiet enjoyed reading this post, it is basically a long way of saying what we have is it for humanity and all the misery that comes with capitalism isn't going to go away.
Yep, in a nutshell. How do you propose to change that.

It is not a mindset that I have, it is a sad reflection of what the world is and what it is likely to be for the foreseeable.

When/If you have time, read the early pages of the Virus thread. From March to May there were many posts and posters predicting, or at least hoping, that the plus side of the pandemic would see a kinder, more understanding world with people helping others and nations. Special atention was given to a likely rise in air fares and how beneficial it would be for humanity and the planet if air fares once again became out of reach for the mass tourist market. In global news, the talk was about a universal, and almost free vaccine, available for all the world.

The reality panned out as such - in July and August the Brits were flying to the Med in even cheaper deals as the flight and tourism industry offered crazy deals to get the businesses going again - so bang went the idealised climate benefits on the very first sight of lockdown easing. Recently, and now, the world is squabbling over who gets the vaccines, and which area of the world is most likely to get the vaccines last?

I am sating there is lots of laudable rhetoric, not least on here, but human nature comes into play. And people, societies, nations, governments revert to type once a crisis has passed. Change takes time, and significant change takes significant time. One hundred or so years ago, the upper classes were sending their countries men by the millions to be slaughtered in Europe in a real game of Risk, much like the multitude of video games we play today. 200 years ago the wealthy were running a slave triangle, and at home the mine owners and textile factories were effectively using the working class white man as poor waged slaves, and forever chipping away at wages leading to chartist movement, unions, massacres, the labour movement etc.. Before that we had a feudal system, and before that slavery by conquest, invasion and pillage.

Today is the same, but better. The ultra wealthy still have wage slaves and compliant governments more or less on the take. There are dangers that long fight for workers rights may be eroded. And you get the feeling that most governments priority is to get those wage slaves back to work as soon as possible. If they are public workers this seems to be via threats and intimidation and a lack of empathy from arrogant ministers. You feel that in public the governmental focus is on public health and the well being of citizens, but in private..... That is why 'herd immunity' dithering and then focus on vaccines is/was the priorities. The UK Tory government blindsided everyone with the excellent furloughing scheme, and other nations did the same. Was that them showing a long absent humanitarian face, or clever crisis management? I suggest the latter, in private meetings they must have recognised that this crisis could turn catastrophic very quickly with blood on the streets. I point to the adage that most people are three missing pay cheques away from being in dire straits.

How do you change thousands of years of human nature? Okay, the vast majority of people are kind, generous etc.. i.e. They are not cnuts. But outside of individual impulse, how do you change institutional and systematic human nature. You trust elected (or non-elected) governments, leaders, and philanthropic business leaders to do that work for the commonwealth. And individually you sign up to join them bt being elected and you spend years banging your head against walls until some of them crumble a little. What you don't do is go to a G8 meeting a throw molotov cocktails at police, or seemingly attack congress while they police are conveniently looking the other way.

Human nature - a fault of many, and certainly mine, is poor management of what little money trickles down to us. People overspend and usually on unnecessary things. I again point to the Virus thread where people where heralding the end of consumerism as a benefit - and yet Amazon are among the biggest winners, and when the shops were allowed to open the biggest queues with that furlough money were outside shops selling Nike and Adidas trainers. How many of these spendthrift people really go ahead and change their habits after being dealt one or more very harsh lessons on the value of money and the dangers of debt. On a macro level that applies to many nations as well. Okay, the debtors (and let's not wander into Dickensian Workhouses here) have ayear or more of pain, and they get through that psychologically by promising themselves that it will never happen again. But the moment they become solvent, or they become creditworthy, or they come into some money - what happens?

I have taken a sidestep there.....but look at what happened last year, and will happen this year. There is a predicted economic consequence, personally I don't think it is as negative as many predict, but even some of the ardent doomsayers are not preparing themselves for it. When conditions allow the mantra is spend now and worry about the future when the future arrives. Generally, because many had money wasting away in their bank accounts and no opportunities to spend it.

We all know what is right, we all know what actions are the most prudent and sensible. We all know the kind of society we would like to see. CR wants to see a society where everybody lives in the same kind of serviceable house. Feck that - I don't want to live in some government built communist tower block outside Chernobyl. He seems to advocate eliminating choice therefore impacting on peoples freedoms, which is against the human nature of people attempting to advance.

Ultmately, things won't change in the short to medium term because people are naturally concerned with the wellbeing of their loved ones and friends, and they won't vote in governments they perceive will put any degree of that at risk. And it is hard to argue against that thinking whatever your desires for a better world might be.


And breathe...
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  #193  
Old 26-02-2021, 01:53 AM
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Oh and CR, again on the subject of human nature and your plan for universal social housing....

...have a read of the rise and fall of the property market thread and re evaluate how big the clouds and cuckoos are in the land you are trying to create.

That is not a reflection of of BBSers. But check a post on the last page where a poster tells of people buying his place and selling a year later looking to make an instant 150k profit.

AND, multiple poster discussing and perhaps agreeing that some Stamp Duty holiday (or somesuch) may eventually become permanent as yet another government underpins the economy, the well being of the middle classes, and their future electoral sense on a seemingly (I can't work out the true value of these things in any kind of context anymore) hyper inflated housing sector.

How do you propose getting elected with a policy that strips away all that and offers a single option of a univeral, identical, home that is liveable but not in anyway luxurious?

How do you propose making up the short fall in peoples pension pots that the sell of these expensive properties provide?

How do you propose marketing that to an electorate, or do you propose foregoing the need of an electorate?
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  #194  
Old 26-02-2021, 05:58 AM
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In which case I think you have missed the whole point of why social housing is a benefit, and that more of it would be more of a benefit, and why all housing being social housing would be the biggest benefit. With all due respect to AJ, it was mostly just a series of pedantic points, while entirely ignoring the huge problems with people owning private housing, problems which make any issues he raised with social houisng pale in to insignificance.
Not at all. The point (which was patently clear) was you were advocating a primitive, inefficient form of barter-exchange, as well as all the other daft points about why private property should be abolished and we should all live in state housing allocated according to 'need'.
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  #195  
Old 26-02-2021, 06:15 AM
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Two fine posts from Peter there. A lengthy but sound exposition as to why hard-left economics are doomed to fail: human nature. Rather than adapting economics to people, CR wants to compel people to fit a prescriptive and unrealistic economic model, and restrict their everyday freedom of choice.
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Old 26-02-2021, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
as well as all the other daft points about why private property should be abolished and we should all live in state housing allocated according to 'need'.
Having issued lifetime secured tenancy to everyone, he couldn't even manage to allocate according to need either. All the nice, large houses would just pass from generation to generation based on occupancy, inherited wealth as it were.
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  #197  
Old 26-02-2021, 07:44 AM
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So in summary.
The 10 richest Americans should build lots and lots of houses that we all move in to for very low rents.
House repairs are done for free and Bill Gates mustn't cure polio.

What have I missed?
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Old 26-02-2021, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
Which is your opinion....

However look at history social housing in this country really only started to grow in 1920s as the answer to the homes fit for heros post WW1 and developed expanded post WW2. But it also came with jobs. Look at the success of Atlee who set in motion the new towns that I grew up in. My father left a slum in London got a job and was given a card which he took to the council who gave him a house he could only dream about in London. We moved from rooms above a hardware store opposite the gas works in Bell Green. No indoor facilities shared by three generations to what to me was luxury. Ok heating was only a coal fire but my own room indoor toilet and we had a bathroom.
For 1000s of us this was it. Yet within less than 25 years so many wanted more. History again look at the election of 79. Where did Thatcher make gains in the South the new towns. Across them Labour fell to the dream of home ownership the right to buy. In Stevenage we lost Shirley Williams a great constituency MP. To a Tory who was shall say nothing in comparison. But it was not just Stevenage there were others. The failure to use the funds raised to re new the social housing stock leads us to today. The failure to use the money from oil to reinvest in jobs but invest in ideology by Thatcher leads us to today.
Only under Blair the view in Labour prevailed workers and owners need to work together invest in jobs by the private sector in people by the state.
The state alone cannot suceed Atlee did only as a consequence of war. Long term it was doomed in terms of cost.
The individual is just that we each have differing needs desires wants we see it on this thread gym cinema room yours of a garden nice car. Mine crap car compared to yours....
Do you implement a change that suppress that for a greater good those left behind brought on. Or do you take those left behind and implement change for them to achieve. Match the aspirational desire by opportunity within the current system. I prefer the latter to your revolution.

What going back to the original post is missing is how much the poor in the world lives have improved. Dont get me wrong we have a chasm yet to close. Until 2020 you will find it has improved slowly certainly and yet it will continue to do so. Individuals like you have identified the failings. Look at the response we give as a nation to disasters around the world. Its not all greed. Look at the debate on the thread on Bill Gates or others. So do we implement a system that has failed time and again in countries across the world from Albania to Venezuela or develop the one we have to close the chasm faster. My view you know the failure of Socialism you desire is the failure to understand human nature. Suppress the free will of man you might suceed but for me not a price to pay.
What are you talking about? My car is over ten years old lol. And I haven’t got a garden and won’t have a individual one if I move. In your desperation to make digs at least get it right that’s twice you’ve not. I want a council home.

Once again you’ve written a long rambling post and I can’t work out what points you’re trying to make. The point about all housing being social housing is that there would be a huge variety and any down sides would be far less than the current system.

As for things getting better well it would be quite amazing with the technological advances that humanity produces if there were none. Capitalism was an improvement on feudalism but it will never get rid of the wide spread misery that still exists, it’s a system that cannot do it. If you think that’s all humanity can do I think it’s a depressing outlook but that’s up to you.
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Old 26-02-2021, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Capitalism was an improvement on feudalism but it will never get rid of the wide spread misery that still exists, itís a system that cannot do it. If you think thatís all humanity can do I think itís a depressing outlook but thatís up to you.
In fairness the point that you are consistently missing is that there is a common element to all systems, be they feudal, capitalist, communist or socialist, and that is of course humanity.


The problems that all systems have and have had probably lie in this common element rather than the systems themselves. I suspect this is why many distrust your utopian visions.
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Old 26-02-2021, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
I want a council home.
Unlucky, it's allocation based on need, not want.
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