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  #20021  
Old 23-01-2017, 04:48 PM
Hpalace Hpalace is offline
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
I don't think the accession states caused that much of a big deal. I don't think anyone was that bothered about having a referendum, and if we hadn't had one, most people wouldn't have cared. Brexit had a hugely anti migrant campaign and has whipped up negative feeling.
Not sure if I agree on this though. UKIP had circa 106,000 votes in the UK in 1997, 603,000 in 2005, and just shy of 3,900,000 in 2015. Between 2010 and 2015 they increased their vote by over 300%. I think it was a growing issue still. In 1997 they had 0.3% of the vote. Then the accession... In 2005 they had 2.2%, rising to 3.1% in 2010. By 2015 they had 12.6% of the overall vote in the UK. Over the space of 20 years the wage disparity would have become less of an issue but alas i think the powers that be opened the doors too wide and too quickly. Chuck a massive global crash into the middle of those years where people had less, wages stagnated and austerity began and you have the result of 2016.

The UK went from being totally not bothered about it - to it being a huge % of the population that voted, at national elections, for one issue and one issue only.

Last edited by Hpalace; 23-01-2017 at 06:23 PM.
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  #20022  
Old 23-01-2017, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Biggineagle View Post
We need to repossess them for a pittance, and send them on their way with a boot up their backside
But these public companies were sold to the public and clearly the public decided they were quite happy to sell them to foreigners for a profit.
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  #20023  
Old 23-01-2017, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Do you think after leaving the EU that citizens from EU countries should have priority over relatives from countries such as Jamaica, Australia and India?
Do you honestly think after leaving the EU it will be any easier for Jamaicans, Australians and Indians to get a visa? Those countries are even less white than the EU. Australia isn't a sunny Essex, there's been mass immigration from all over the world, its ethnically diverse. Global Britain is about a return to Little England, going back to the days of "no dogs, no blacks, no Irish". It's not about giving Jamaicans a fair crack of the whip. The UK blocked an EU trade deal with India as it had relaxed visas in it, May has just come back from India where she got nowhere as she refused to discuss visas and her whole student visa policy is aimed at reducing the numbers of dark skinned people living in the UK. There's a reason every racist likes Brexit.
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  #20024  
Old 23-01-2017, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by eaglejez View Post
the retirement age has gone up since people are living longer
The trouble is most companies don't want people over the age of 60, let alone 65 plus.
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  #20025  
Old 23-01-2017, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
Not sure if I agree on this though. UKIP had circa 106,000 votes in the UK in 1997, 603,000 in 2005, and just shy of 3,900,000 in 2015. Between 2010 and 2015 they increased their vote by over 300%. I think it was a growing issue still. In 1997 they had 0.3% of the vote. Then the accession... In 2005 they had 2.2%, rising to 3.1% in 2010. By 2015 they had 12.6% of the overall vote in the UK. Over the space of 20 years the wage disparity would have become less of an issue but alas i think the powers that be opened the doors too fast and too quickly. Chuck a massive global crash into the middle of those years where people had less, wages stagnated and austerity began and you have the result of 2016.

The UK went from being totally not bothered about it - to it being a huge % of the population that voted, at national elections, for one issue and one issue only.
I'm not saying it was no issue at all, but 12.6% is still not that significant and I think the issue would have become less and less over time. But we will never know now, and xenophobia is on the rise.
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  #20026  
Old 23-01-2017, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
Not sure if I agree on this though. UKIP had circa 106,000 votes in the UK in 1997, 603,000 in 2005, and just shy of 3,900,000 in 2015. Between 2010 and 2015 they increased their vote by over 300%. I think it was a growing issue still. In 1997 they had 0.3% of the vote. Then the accession... In 2005 they had 2.2%, rising to 3.1% in 2010. By 2015 they had 12.6% of the overall vote in the UK. Over the space of 20 years the wage disparity would have become less of an issue but alas i think the powers that be opened the doors too fast and too quickly. Chuck a massive global crash into the middle of those years where people had less, wages stagnated and austerity began and you have the result of 2016.

The UK went from being totally not bothered about it - to it being a huge % of the population that voted, at national elections, for one issue and one issue only.
What you've spotted isn't necessarily causality. Remember as yous aid we also say a once in a generation economic crash in 2007-8 followed be a decade of austerity politics. All over the world we have seen the rise of populist, racist parties and they haven't all been impacted by EU expansion.
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  #20027  
Old 23-01-2017, 05:29 PM
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Brexit could cut wages by 30% over next two decades, says private equity boss Guy Hands

One of the most high profile names in finance has said that Brexit is going to lead to dramatic economic upheaval which will be bad for most people but good for his multi billion-pound private equity firm.

Guy Hands, chairman of Terra Firma, one of Europe's largest private equity groups, warned that the country will have to get rid of much of its social safety net and may see a 30 per cent decline in wages in real terms in the next 20 years to enable it to compete outside of Europe.

“The slightly sad thing is the people who voted for Brexit aren’t the people who are going to have to make these sacrifices,” Hands said. “That’s not unusual for big, political decisions when people don’t fully analyse what the economic consequences are.”
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  #20028  
Old 23-01-2017, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Oisin View Post
What you've spotted isn't necessarily causality. Remember as yous aid we also say a once in a generation economic crash in 2007-8 followed be a decade of austerity politics. All over the world we have seen the rise of populist, racist parties and they haven't all been impacted by EU expansion.
I agree. Remove the crash of 2008 and the following 8 years of austerity including a decline in our services and quite possibly Brexit may not have happened. Likewise remove the Blair open door policy - not followed by the other major original EU members - and again Brexit may not have happened.

In a time of austerity and declining services having a few hundred thousand immigrants arriving in the UK year on year was never going to end well given the historic evidence of how the UK populace reacts to mass immigration in times of lack of wealth.

EU expansion (UK driven) happened on too grand a scale and too quickly. Mass immigration from the new EU (UK driven) therefore happened on too grand a scale and too quickly. Biting austerity (UK driven) also happened on too grand a scale and too quickly. Labour decimated in Scotland by SNP. Conservative decimation of the liberals. Chuck it all into the mix and you have UKIP marching with 300% increases between elections to their vote scaring the bejeesus out of the conservatives = Brexit.
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  #20029  
Old 23-01-2017, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dave_who_ru View Post
The trouble is most companies don't want people over the age of 60, let alone 65 plus.
We 'blind sift' our applicants so offer interviews based on relevant experience alone.
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  #20030  
Old 23-01-2017, 07:26 PM
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Brexit could cut wages by 30% over next two decades, says private equity boss Guy Hands

One of the most high profile names in finance has said that Brexit is going to lead to dramatic economic upheaval which will be bad for most people but good for his multi billion-pound private equity firm.

Guy Hands, chairman of Terra Firma, one of Europe's largest private equity groups, warned that the country will have to get rid of much of its social safety net and may see a 30 per cent decline in wages in real terms in the next 20 years to enable it to compete outside of Europe.

“The slightly sad thing is the people who voted for Brexit aren’t the people who are going to have to make these sacrifices,” Hands said. “That’s not unusual for big, political decisions when people don’t fully analyse what the economic consequences are.”
Wow. Maybe he could use some of the mega profits from getting Angel Trains for a pittance post privatisation to set up a fund for the deserving poor who are going to not be able to send their kids abroad to study like everyone else

Of all the people for a raving lefty to quote. have you seen how he got rich
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  #20031  
Old 23-01-2017, 07:37 PM
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Wow. Maybe he could use some of the mega profits from getting Angel Trains for a pittance post privatisation to set up a fund for the deserving poor who are going to not be able to send their kids abroad to study like everyone else

Of all the people for a raving lefty to quote. have you seen how he got rich
He also doesn't have a good track record with his fund's management of care homes either.
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  #20032  
Old 23-01-2017, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dave_who_ru View Post
But these public companies were sold to the public and clearly the public decided they were quite happy to sell them to foreigners for a profit.
Tories privatised them but the foreign takeovers happened under Labour. EDF took over London Electricity and Seeboard, Macquarrie took over Thames Water. Telefonica took over O2, Iberdrola took over Scottish Power, RWE took over Npower, Eon took over Powergen all under Labour. Whether Labour could have stopped it as part of the single market is a good question. Also whether they should of is open for debate as well.
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  #20033  
Old 23-01-2017, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Oisin View Post
Do you honestly think after leaving the EU it will be any easier for Jamaicans, Australians and Indians to get a visa? Those countries are even less white than the EU. Australia isn't a sunny Essex, there's been mass immigration from all over the world, its ethnically diverse. Global Britain is about a return to Little England, going back to the days of "no dogs, no blacks, no Irish". It's not about giving Jamaicans a fair crack of the whip. The UK blocked an EU trade deal with India as it had relaxed visas in it, May has just come back from India where she got nowhere as she refused to discuss visas and her whole student visa policy is aimed at reducing the numbers of dark skinned people living in the UK. There's a reason every racist likes Brexit.
I know lots of people who voted Brexit who are not racist and some who have employed people here in our local towns from multiple countries. Sadly I have met a couple of racists who voted Brexit. Most though I have met are definitely not racist and cannot agree with the constant association of Brexit voters with racism. I just think that the things that needed doing to improve the situation for modestly paid workers could have been achieved by domestic changes, changes to terms and conditions for posted workers and a more expansionary ECB policy without the need for Brexit. Oh and no regrettably I don't think those with relatives from Jamaica will find it easier for them to come here. Edit... had I of believed that then it would have been a factor to vote for Brexit.

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  #20034  
Old 23-01-2017, 07:50 PM
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He also doesn't have a good track record with his fund's management of care homes either.
The fact that someone would want to use care homes as an infrastructure asset class
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  #20035  
Old 23-01-2017, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Oisin View Post
Do you honestly think after leaving the EU it will be any easier for Jamaicans, Australians and Indians to get a visa? Those countries are even less white than the EU. Australia isn't a sunny Essex, there's been mass immigration from all over the world, its ethnically diverse. Global Britain is about a return to Little England, going back to the days of "no dogs, no blacks, no Irish". It's not about giving Jamaicans a fair crack of the whip. The UK blocked an EU trade deal with India as it had relaxed visas in it, May has just come back from India where she got nowhere as she refused to discuss visas and her whole student visa policy is aimed at reducing the numbers of dark skinned people living in the UK. There's a reason every racist likes Brexit.
What a pile of crap. For a start you support a system that benefits 'lighter skinned' Europeans. Plenty of racist Remainers
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  #20036  
Old 23-01-2017, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
I agree. Remove the crash of 2008 and the following 8 years of austerity including a decline in our services and quite possibly Brexit may not have happened. Likewise remove the Blair open door policy - not followed by the other major original EU members - and again Brexit may not have happened.

In a time of austerity and declining services having a few hundred thousand immigrants arriving in the UK year on year was never going to end well given the historic evidence of how the UK populace reacts to mass immigration in times of lack of wealth.

EU expansion (UK driven) happened on too grand a scale and too quickly. Mass immigration from the new EU (UK driven) therefore happened on too grand a scale and too quickly. Biting austerity (UK driven) also happened on too grand a scale and too quickly. Labour decimated in Scotland by SNP. Conservative decimation of the liberals. Chuck it all into the mix and you have UKIP marching with 300% increases between elections to their vote scaring the bejeesus out of the conservatives = Brexit.
This is one of the best posts I've seen and grasps the situation over a number of years perfectly.

It should also be said that there was a copy cat policy in the US with cheap Mexican labour used by a number of companies and major companies shifting manufacturing to cheaper places.

Trump being one of the bosses doing this.

Now, however, the wolf is wearing sheep's clothing and is telling companies not to move abroad or face import taxes and is saying employ local workers.

The pendulum has swung the other way but its so true that had Blair signed up to the opt out clause then we would not be facing brexit at all.

Unemployment went up after 2008 to 8% and stayed there until 2013. That was when the damage was done and people immediately started saying hang on I haven't got a job why are all these east Europeans still coming over?

Another interesting question is why did Cameron choose to have the vote so quickly. He promised it during the next parliament so could have waited until 2018.
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  #20037  
Old 23-01-2017, 07:57 PM
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Looks like Jeremy Corbyn has changed his mind here? He has upset the building industry by criticising employers for recruiting abroad in order to cut cut wages and destroy working conditions. That is stronger language than
I've heard elsewhere in politics. Did he really say that?

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  #20038  
Old 23-01-2017, 08:04 PM
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Brexit could cut wages by 30% over next two decades, says private equity boss Guy Hands

One of the most high profile names in finance has said that Brexit is going to lead to dramatic economic upheaval which will be bad for most people but good for his multi billion-pound private equity firm.

Guy Hands, chairman of Terra Firma, one of Europe's largest private equity groups, warned that the country will have to get rid of much of its social safety net and may see a 30 per cent decline in wages in real terms in the next 20 years to enable it to compete outside of Europe.

“The slightly sad thing is the people who voted for Brexit aren’t the people who are going to have to make these sacrifices,” Hands said. “That’s not unusual for big, political decisions when people don’t fully analyse what the economic consequences are.”
Complete crock.

We are no longer a manufacturing country. We provide services to others. We are a buyer of product.

Also, this talk of the EU being a closed market to countries external to the EU will find it impossible to trade with the EU is twaddle. Hands up who has a British made TV? How did they get here from japan or korea at such cheap prices then?

Because they have a trade deal with them.
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  #20039  
Old 23-01-2017, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
I agree. Remove the crash of 2008 and the following 8 years of austerity including a decline in our services and quite possibly Brexit may not have happened. Likewise remove the Blair open door policy - not followed by the other major original EU members - and again Brexit may not have happened.

In a time of austerity and declining services having a few hundred thousand immigrants arriving in the UK year on year was never going to end well given the historic evidence of how the UK populace reacts to mass immigration in times of lack of wealth.

EU expansion (UK driven) happened on too grand a scale and too quickly. Mass immigration from the new EU (UK driven) therefore happened on too grand a scale and too quickly. Biting austerity (UK driven) also happened on too grand a scale and too quickly. Labour decimated in Scotland by SNP. Conservative decimation of the liberals. Chuck it all into the mix and you have UKIP marching with 300% increases between elections to their vote scaring the bejeesus out of the conservatives = Brexit.
Good post. I might add that the ECB itself could have helped by being more expansionary at an earlier date then the recovery in some of the countries in the Med would have come earlier and provided people with more options.
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  #20040  
Old 23-01-2017, 08:45 PM
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Complete crock.

We are no longer a manufacturing country. We provide services to others. We are a buyer of product.

Also, this talk of the EU being a closed market to countries external to the EU will find it impossible to trade with the EU is twaddle. Hands up who has a British made TV? How did they get here from japan or korea at such cheap prices then?

Because they have a trade deal with them.
I always thought you had to sell stuff to be able to buy stuff. Financial services will not provide sufficient income post Brexit to do that.

This is going to be the basis of May's speech tomorrow, as she apparently is going to give manufacturing a boost post Brexit. Let us all hope she does deliver on this.
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Last edited by SE25 exile; 23-01-2017 at 08:51 PM.
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