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  #201  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Clapham Rover View Post
For some yes - but there were others the reverse - on the doorstep I found more people who had never voted before in their lives who were going to vote in 2017 than I have ever found before and all of them were going to vote for Corbyn. He activated a vote that basically didn't exist before (although Dominic Cummings may have signed a fair few up in 2016) he also motivated a huge army of young people - you saw the massive outbursts of enthusiasm in 2017 at places like Glastonbury? Some shiny-suited Trudeau-alike just wouldn't have got those. No way. Seriously I bought the "toxic" argument pre-2017, I don't think it stands up now. Something much more complex is going on.
You still haven't provided an answer as to why Corbyn polls so badly compared to the Labour party.
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  #202  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Clapham Rover View Post
. Seriously I bought the "toxic" argument pre-2017, I don't think it stands up now. Something much more complex is going on.
Yes.


Couldn't possibly be Corbyn at fault...


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  #203  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:07 AM
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As an aside, Ian Austen has quit Labour, although is not joining the new faction.

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  #204  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Clapham Rover View Post
Oh come on.

Wouldn't you say the timing is designed to assist them? They just can't let him in because it's too obviously ridiculous. It's just 2016, version 3.0 or whatever we're up to now.
Ok, you win. It is definitely a TIG issue, even though he's not joining them, and definitely not a Labout issue, even though that's who he's just resigned from.
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  #205  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by stevek View Post
I'm not sure why it's absurd. Austin has left the Labour Party because he does not agree with its hard left shift under Corbyn. But he's not joining the Independent Group because they are anti-Brexit and he is not.
What are Labour's hard left policies?
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  #206  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ExiledStirling View Post
To be honest a deal worth doing if it can lead to the revoking of article 50. Some things are more important than party politics
They don’t have to prop up the tories to get that result.
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  #207  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:14 AM
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They don’t have to prop up the tories to get that result.
The post you are answering says it shouldn’t be about just party politics!!!
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  #208  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:18 AM
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The post you are answering says it shouldn’t be about just party politics!!!
Which is my point. There are many other ways to get that result which they haven’t chosen.
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  #209  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Clapham Rover View Post
My point he's done this because he hates social democracy not because of common ground on Europe. He's clearly done this to support and enhance TIG and in cahoots with them - even though he fundamentally disagrees with them on the dominant issue of the day and the one that TIG are claiming as their key raison d'etre. That's the absurdity. Like trying to make this about "anti-semitism in the Labour Party" - as if this explained why a bunch of tories would join. They just can't get their story straight.
Ffs.
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  #210  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:20 AM
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Ian Austin (Labour MP) has quit now but not to the independent group.

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  #211  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by se1eagle View Post
Yes, and I replied that I don't trust Corbyn to deliver it, based on the man himself and the people he has surrounded himself with.

Labour is almost neck and neck in the polls, the public is generally supportive of the Labour policies, and yet Corbyn has the worst unfavourability ratings since those polls existed. What will it take for you to see that the problem is Corbyn?

It's no wonder people think Corbynism is a cult when the members are more wedded to the man than they are to the policies, or the good of the party.
That's the thing that saddens me the most.

This hateful party who show little or no compassion to the poor and working class, who rule by divide and conquer, who swig champagne whilst the elderly struggle to foodbanks, who hand wring at the inner city violence, the I'm alright Jack attitude..

Yes those ****ers.

Without effective opposition, they will be in power till at least 2027, 8 more years of inequality and austerity, it doesn't bear thinking about
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  #212  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Clapham Rover View Post
He isn't "toxic"; the 2017 GE result was the largest increase in the Labour vote, basically ever. The Labour vote in England went up by over 40% after just 2 years of the most beleaguered and attacked leadership ever (maybe = to M.Foot). This is literally unprecedented in British political history - you just can't call someone who does this "toxic"; it's flying in the face of the facts.


So I can agree that he's marmite - ie toxic to some for sure (but remember so was "red Ed") - I can't just dismiss him as toxic. For sure I wish there was some shiny charismatic non-marmite version who everyone loves but I can't see them anywhere. Until then I'll vote on policy and - as usual - the principle of least-worst, which is enshrined in our constitution basically.
His inability to convince a viable alternative to Brexit, to listen to those in his party for a 2nd Vote or any other option and his total abject failure to deal with the anti Semite rabble rousers among his ranks make it a spectacular own goal and shooting of oneself in the (Michael) Foot.

To lose one MP is careless, he's lost 9 in a week!

Alas, the perception for me anyway, is he's fiddled and flapped whilst all around him burns..
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  #213  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:29 AM
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The problem is if not Corbyn then who?
Someone who isn't a Eurosceptic antisemite hopefully.

It doesn't seem a lot to ask for from a Labour leader.
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  #214  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:33 AM
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  #215  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:41 AM
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You still haven't provided an answer as to why Corbyn polls so badly compared to the Labour party.
To be fair the question hasn't been asked up until now - except by myself - and I've said I don't think there's an easy answer as to what's going on. But the obvious answer is that he's been utterly monstered from the moment he looked like winning in 2015 until now.

It's interesting reading the slightly whiny memoirs of the leaders of the Stronger In campaign - dominated as it was by tories of one stripe or another - they were utterly shocked by, and unable to successfully deal with the level of media hostility they had to deal with from the tabloids. They'd never encountered it before and simply didn't know what to do with it.

Exactly why this mostering didn't translate into a disaster at the polls is 2017 is another question and the harder one to answer I think but - as I've argued a few times - one reason is that Labour did so well in 2017 not despite the monstering but because of it - it reaffirmed Corbyn's outsider status and basically proves he's not in the cozy little governing club that runs this country for its won benefit. It looks like quite a few people think this. On the other hand quite a few people do buy it and vote/poll against him accordingly. It may not come as shock to you, but I think the upshot is that the UK may be rather badly split at the moment.
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  #216  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:46 AM
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Ok, you win. It is definitely a TIG issue, even though he's not joining them, and definitely not a Labout issue, even though that's who he's just resigned from.
It's not necessarily a you-win/I lose question is it? It's absolutely plain that Austin's key motive is to bring down Corbyn - it's nothing to do with Brexit, the man's a hardline brexiteer ffs. But he's acting in concert with a load of other people who also want to bring down Corbyn and say they think Bremain is the big key, just like others are claiming its anti-semitism.

The one thing they all agree is on is destroying Corbyn & Corbynism - ie mild social democracy. If it walks like a bunch of neo-liberals and quacks like a bunch of neo-liberals, my guess it's a bunch of neoliberals.

Although to be fair to those who disagree with this reading it's desperately trying to do duck-quacky ventriloquism that sounds like it's saying "Bremain." That's why Austen just adds amusement value.
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  #217  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:54 AM
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It's not necessarily a you-win/I lose question is it? It's absolutely plain that Austin's key motive is to bring down Corbyn - it's nothing to do with Brexit, the man's a hardline brexiteer ffs. But he's acting in concert with a load of other people who also want to bring down Corbyn and say they think Bremain is the big key, just like others are claiming its anti-semitism.

The one thing they all agree is on is destroying Corbyn & Corbynism - ie mild social democracy. If it walks like a bunch of neo-liberals and quacks like a bunch of neo-liberals, my guess it's a bunch of neoliberals.

Although to be fair to those who disagree with this reading it's desperately trying to do duck-quacky ventriloquism that sounds like it's saying "Bremain." That's why Austen just adds amusement value.
The line 'claiming it's anti-semitism' nicely sums up the Labour Party leadership's problem with anti-semitism. It thinks it's just a made up stick to beat them with, and refuses to address it as a real issue.

Of the Labour MPs resigned so far: one was Jewish; one was adopted by Jewish parents and one had a close relationship with the Jewish community through her parliamentary work. But of course it's just neo-liberalism.
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  #218  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:55 AM
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To be fair the question hasn't been asked up until now - except by myself - and I've said I don't think there's an easy answer as to what's going on. But the obvious answer is that he's been utterly monstered from the moment he looked like winning in 2015 until now.

It's interesting reading the slightly whiny memoirs of the leaders of the Stronger In campaign - dominated as it was by tories of one stripe or another - they were utterly shocked by, and unable to successfully deal with the level of media hostility they had to deal with from the tabloids. They'd never encountered it before and simply didn't know what to do with it.

Exactly why this mostering didn't translate into a disaster at the polls is 2017 is another question and the harder one to answer I think but - as I've argued a few times - one reason is that Labour did so well in 2017 not despite the monstering but because of it - it reaffirmed Corbyn's outsider status and basically proves he's not in the cozy little governing club that runs this country for its won benefit. It looks like quite a few people think this. On the other hand quite a few people do buy it and vote/poll against him accordingly. It may not come as shock to you, but I think the upshot is that the UK may be rather badly split at the moment.
There's a very easy answer. Corbyn is massively unpopular - whether that's because has been unfairly monstered or not, he is - and the Labour Party is popular.

Replace Corbyn with a popular leader, or even a less unpopular leader, and Labour would reap the benefits. But that's not going to happen, because he won't stand down, and the membership don't want him to stand down. It's genuinely bizarre.
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  #219  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:55 AM
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Someone who isn't a Eurosceptic antisemite hopefully.
No one who actually cares about racism or anti-semitism would use this issue as a political football. It's a very dangerous game. It means that both "racism" and "anti-semitism" lose all meaning, yet they are real things with extremely dangerous consequences. It amazes me that smug bourgeois liberals are so happy to do this.
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  #220  
Old 22-02-2019, 10:59 AM
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Have to say, insofar as this isn't just semantics, I'd go with marmite rather than toxic too. He clearly does have a lot of positive qualities as a politician - particularly when campaigning. The huge self-inflicted wounds of the Tory party's campaign shouldn't detract entirely from the fact that he was on a hiding to nothing at the start of it.

To me, he's pretty clearly a politician who looks like a 180 lbs of chewed bubblegum when in Westminster or dealing with the press or with his own party, but a guy who does well at campaigning. And tbh, the fact that he is toxic with a lot of the Britain helps him reach other parts. These are good days for outsider politics.
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