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  #2001  
Old 14-05-2020, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
It was a shit decision.

I am not sure they would have won, but they could at least have painted Brexit as the rabid right wing disaster project that it is.

Instead they tried to appease Brexiteers as if Jacob **** Mogg and Nigel Farage are somehow on the side of the working man.

They would at least have forced the forgotten of Formby to own their shit.

Why didn't they? Because Corbyn, McCluskey, Murray and Milne are anti-EU too.
Corbyn's historic opposition to the EU was always weirdly absent from debates around Brexit. I always felt he was being dishonest whenever discussing the EU.

Somewhere in the universe, there is an alternate timeline where Corbyn led Labour through the referendum as a Leave party.
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  #2002  
Old 14-05-2020, 02:27 PM
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Not long now, just over 6 months left - woohoo!!
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  #2003  
Old 14-05-2020, 02:31 PM
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Not long now, just over 6 months left - woohoo!!
Hope you and your family suffer
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  #2004  
Old 14-05-2020, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
How disappointing. I was looking forward to a detailed etymology. My untrained understanding was that the word was originally Greek and a descriptor of everyone else in the world.

Ironically the Romans changed its meaning to those that are uncivilised, ironic of course because the Romans would have been considered barbarians by the Greeks.

There is no association or connection to North African Berbers, nor Barbary Apes as far as I know.
Anyone with half a brain cell knows the origin of the word (it's even found in Linear B inscriptions, I believe), and also that "berber"/"barbary" have the same root.
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  #2005  
Old 14-05-2020, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Hedgehog View Post
Interesting view and the stuff about being anti-establishment from establishment figures is a fascinating phenomenon. I have never understood how voters could swallow such a brazen lie as the idea that Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson are anti-establishment. The Americans even decided that the swamp monster was the best person to drain the swamp. Powerful stupidity.

Starmer is wealthy and a knight because he worked hard for it. You're right that it's hard for him to be an anti-establishment figure - but not because he got there through privilege. He didn't.

Instead, Starmer will struggle to be an anti-establishment figure because he's a walking example that the system can work - that a relatively normal lower middle-class person can rise through the ranks.

It's illogical for Labour to start saying that being successful is somehow a disqualifying factor to being a Labour member. In fact it's totally counter-intuitive... social mobility is meant to be a core tenet of liberalism.

It's a very confused world when Starmer making a success of himself is somehow a bad thing. The right are very good at making hay with these black-and-white ideas when they emanate from the left.

I would add that the 2017 election result is a huge anomaly. In hindsight, the vote was as much to do with Brexiter's anger towards Theresa May than any particular appetite for Corbyn. It was a '**** you' to Theresa May, just like Brexit was a '**** you' to the EU. It wasn't really an endorsement of Labour or their messaging, which was proven at the next election.
I believe it was a **** you to the establishment, as pretty much every election has been won on. The irony being that the establishment always seem to remain in charge. The electorate generally don't pay attention, so how well or how badly the other side get their message across is the crucial thing. Johnson and his team were far better than Corbyn and his team. This was obvious before the election and nothing happened to shift it and therefore shift the polls.

I agree on Starmer but it's all about perception. When the questions come he will need to have the right answers. He needs someone on his team who understands what the electorate want to hear. He could have some success with creating a narrative of being able to achieve anything from a certain background, but that image is going to have to be well "cultivated", for want of a better word, and he will need a large section of the media on side to pull it off, which is another issue.

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Labour could never win that election at that time. The HoC should have done anything it could to avoid an election.
This was my position and I'm fairly certain that if the Lib Dems and SNP had opposed an election then Labour would have too. If anyone in Labour, who actually wanted to win, genuinely wanted to vote for an election then they are very very naive.
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  #2006  
Old 14-05-2020, 03:50 PM
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Starmer won't be able to play the anti establishment strategy after his time at the DPS but he will be able to play the technocratic and portray himself as a competent pair of hands. He will need some winning policies and the aftermath of this crisis will be an opportunity. People aren't going to want to herd back onto those commuter trains and tubes too quickly so flexible working and massive decentralisation of the decent jobs will be an opportunity. So will reshoring of our industrial capabilities and the desire to reward those low paid workers who kept the country going whilst others worked from home.
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  #2007  
Old 14-05-2020, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveTuttles View Post
Not long now, just over 6 months left - woohoo!!
It was 6 months before this whole Coronavirus thing kicked off. No way will it be now. Any negotiations would’ve been put firmly on hold surely. You will have to put your ‘woo hoo’ on hold for a bit.
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  #2008  
Old 14-05-2020, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by PemboExpress View Post
Starmer absolutely marmalised Johnson today.
Even The Torygraph led with Starmer taking Johnson apart like a Duplo train set.
And then you get the ******* Tory apologists at the BBC lead tonight's 10pm news talking about the UK economy shrinking 2% for almost the first 10 minutes in the last quarter to hide Johnson and this Government's ineptitude over the death toll. Shocking.
Even Gideon's Standard praised the terrifying quality of Starmer's performance.

Hopefully the masses will start to take notice, although it won't be an overnight process
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  #2009  
Old 14-05-2020, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by meee View Post
I don't believe this is important. Voters don't get bogged down with ideology. The reason the right are doing so well is they have started to monopolise the anti establishment argument. We have the anti establishment argument on the left in a way that the centre don't, and that is the fundamental thing for me when we're talking about potentially winning elections. You don't need to be anti establishment necessarily, but you need to be perceived to be by voters who don't engage in the day to day stuff. Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage are not anti establishment, nor is Trump, but they sell themselves as that. Corbyn did it fairly successfully in 2017 and a lot more people bought into it than many predicted. Unfortunately in 2019 Labour looked like it was running the establishment campaign as the left has the problem of siding with the establishment when it comes to being pro Remain, generally speaking. The right and the Tories successfully used this, argued against their own record in the last 9 years and comfortably won.

The answer, for me, is not to go back to "centrism" or "pragmatism" but to argue strongly from an anti establishment perspective. We can't do that with Starmer because he is a wealthy QC with a knighthood who strongly supported Remain. All of those things are big hurdles.
I don't know whether the latter is totally relevant tbh.

Does the man in the street really want one of their own..

Maggie was a grocers daughter and Major was born in St Helier, but neither leant on that a great deal.

Starmer, quietly effective thus far, doesn't use Sir as a prefix, I think his measured approach will do well
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  #2010  
Old 14-05-2020, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Starmer won't be able to play the anti establishment strategy after his time at the DPS but he will be able to play the technocratic and portray himself as a competent pair of hands. He will need some winning policies and the aftermath of this crisis will be an opportunity. People aren't going to want to herd back onto those commuter trains and tubes too quickly so flexible working and massive decentralisation of the decent jobs will be an opportunity. So will reshoring of our industrial capabilities and the desire to reward those low paid workers who kept the country going whilst others worked from home.
I would hope a weary public would appreciate a competent pair of hands.

Of course, someone like Alan Johnson, the postman, would perhaps be more a man of the people but probably not cut out, not ever wanted the top job.

The CEO where I work was a post room boy who moved up, cant has never spoken to me doubt if he knows my name!
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  #2011  
Old 14-05-2020, 04:58 PM
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  #2012  
Old 14-05-2020, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
How disappointing. I was looking forward to a detailed etymology. My untrained understanding was that the word was originally Greek and a descriptor of everyone else in the world.

Ironically the Romans changed its meaning to those that are uncivilised, ironic of course because the Romans would have been considered barbarians by the Greeks.

There is no association or connection to North African Berbers, nor Barbary Apes as far as I know.

I thought, like with Boris, this would have been a bucket you could lower into your well of classical knowledge
You are correct, it's from the Greek, and means 'not I'd more or less. The Roman meaning bearded, is not a correct description but a commonly held misnomer.
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  #2013  
Old 14-05-2020, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Clearly he didn't see PMQs because it felt like Johnson probably had trouble sitting down after Starmmer was done.

Granted it wasn't an angry, play to the camera, ishow piece of theatre, but it was a systematic, precise direction that left the PM looking like an incompetent junior party noobie.
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  #2014  
Old 14-05-2020, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by gold76 View Post
I don't know whether the latter is totally relevant tbh.

Does the man in the street really want one of their own..

Maggie was a grocers daughter and Major was born in St Helier, but neither leant on that a great deal.

Starmer, quietly effective thus far, doesn't use Sir as a prefix, I think his measured approach will do well
I wouldn't think most of me and mine would make good leaders. I would be a terrible PM / leader, an it doesn't suit my talents
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  #2015  
Old 14-05-2020, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by gold76 View Post
I don't know whether the latter is totally relevant tbh.

Does the man in the street really want one of their own..

Maggie was a grocers daughter and Major was born in St Helier, but neither leant on that a great deal.

Starmer, quietly effective thus far, doesn't use Sir as a prefix, I think his measured approach will do well
No they don't. They want someone who voted to leave the EU. It will be a long time before that is not the case.
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  #2016  
Old 14-05-2020, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
How disappointing. I was looking forward to a detailed etymology. My untrained understanding was that the word was originally Greek and a descriptor of everyone else in the world.
Happy to oblige. It’s not about beards but rather about language. Barbarians were people who said “bar bar bar bar” (i.e. unintelligible words, much like we say “rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb” for the same effect nowadays).

Can’t remember who coined it, but I suspect it was Herodotus.
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  #2017  
Old 14-05-2020, 06:38 PM
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Which are a) mainly not currently happening in the UK, despite the utter rassclart in charge; and b) very common under socialism/"socialism".
It depends what you see as socialism. I don't think calling yourself socialist makes it so.

But it's not just about under the UK. But austerity did kill 100,000 people. That aside the UK economy is totally linked in to, through finance capital, arms and industry, the wider barbarity of global capitalism.
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  #2018  
Old 14-05-2020, 06:43 PM
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Thing is, CR, life is fundamentally barbaric. You're born naked and screaming into the world, and only protected from that barbarism by the considerable privileges most of us take for granted.

The world would be barbaric whether we had capitalism or not.

Ironically, many of those privileges were made possible by a capitalistic society and its modern version of democracy. You cannot necessarily separate capitalism and modern democracy.

According to the UN, the world over the last few decades has been safer, healthier, better educated and less deadly than it has ever been. It doesn't always feel that way because we're closer than ever before to all the suffering in the world.

If you look at history with a wider lens, capitalism (as an abbreviation for lots of complicated systems working in unison) has proven to be one of the least barbaric systems, and most effective at gradually improving the quality of life of people around the world. There are some major and troubling exceptions, of course, but I'm talking in a broad/demographic sense.

Most of our rights and freedoms were won incrementally - not through revolution, which almost always ends in tears.

Talk of abolishing the House of Lords is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow - politically and socially, the left needs to eat its greens first and work harder to build compelling arguments, to bring the public with them, and to leverage capitalism and modern democracy rather than become a victim to it. The goal is to create a unifying idea that the country can rally around.

That's not necessarily easy, but the Tories achieve their own bastardised version of a unifying identity for the country. I don't like that vision of Britain, but voters clearly do. They have successfully positioned themselves as 'social democrats', and whether that's actually true or not, voters like it.

Labour used to own that part of the middle ground, but now many Labour activists want to call that 'centrism and dismiss anybody who disagrees and exclude them. This has proven to be a grave and easily avoidable error - if only we put the ideology to one side.

Like I said before, we probably agree about a lot of important stuff politically - I want to see fundamental changes to capitalism as well - but would maybe suggest you consider how many people you have actually convinced with your arguments.

If you want change, you start by changing people's ideas and changing their behaviour. That won't be achieved through some of your lines of argument here.

Since you're active in politics and trade unions, are you actually changing minds and building a compelling argument, or are you being counter-productive and simply turning people away from your ideas? I ask because it's a question that can generalise across the entire political spectrum, and it's an issue that has blighted the left around the world.

(All in my opinion obviously.)
I mean I don't take the BBS seriously. It's very few people and hardly anyone ever changes their mind on here. But off the BBS I think I've convinced quite a lot of people to shift to left wing and socialist ideas.

That aside if you want to have the low horizons of capitalism being the pinnacle of humanity then that's up to you. Of course things have improved, it would be astounding if any system, given that human beings will advance knowledge and technology, wouldn't have made things better in the world. But with that has gone mass starvation, poverty, wars, genocides, environmental destruction. And capitalism will never stop any of those things.

It's also simply not true that our rights were won incrementally, many were won through a lot of intense struggle.
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  #2019  
Old 14-05-2020, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Hedgehog View Post
Interesting view and the stuff about being anti-establishment from establishment figures is a fascinating phenomenon. I have never understood how voters could swallow such a brazen lie as the idea that Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson are anti-establishment. The Americans even decided that the swamp monster was the best person to drain the swamp. Powerful stupidity.

Starmer is wealthy and a knight because he worked hard for it. You're right that it's hard for him to be an anti-establishment figure - but not because he got there through privilege. He didn't.

Instead, Starmer will struggle to be an anti-establishment figure because he's a walking example that the system can work - that a relatively normal lower middle-class person can rise through the ranks.

It's illogical for Labour to start saying that being successful is somehow a disqualifying factor to being a Labour member. In fact it's totally counter-intuitive... social mobility is meant to be a core tenet of liberalism.

It's a very confused world when Starmer making a success of himself is somehow a bad thing. The right are very good at making hay with these black-and-white ideas when they emanate from the left.

I would add that the 2017 election result is a huge anomaly. In hindsight, the vote was as much to do with Brexiter's anger towards Theresa May than any particular appetite for Corbyn. It was a '**** you' to Theresa May, just like Brexit was a '**** you' to the EU. It wasn't really an endorsement of Labour or their messaging, which was proven at the next election.
It's not an example at all. It's one individual. Social mobility isn't good at all.
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  #2020  
Old 14-05-2020, 08:41 PM
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It's not an example at all. It's one individual. Social mobility isn't good at all.
Sorry, are you telling me that I should have stayed a working class council estate kid forever, and followed my dad into the factory?
Or are you just saying that social mobility is an illusion?
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