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  #21  
Old 01-04-2021, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Kipungu View Post
Boston Legal should be compulsory viewing. Atticus Finch has nothing on Denny Crane.
Denny Crane is a fascinating character in that he's a terrible lawyer, but also batting a massive winning streak, because he understands that its about the best outcome, not being right, justice or the truth. Its a fantastic study of the difference between law and justice, idealism and pragmatism, in a single character.
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Old 01-04-2021, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by redandblue View Post
Having spent 10 years working in the legal system and going to court every day of those 10 years it annoys me when people harp on about “foolish technicality’s”.

All “technicality’s” are there for a reason to help serve the best possible justice there are rarely foolish ones only foolish people that believe the press and have not been presented to the full facts and don’t have an in-depth understanding or the law.
This, invariably technicalities entirely exist because of gross misconducts of justice that have occurred in the past, that often resulted in innocent people spending decades in prison, or being put to death.

A friend of mine works as a forensic expert, and his opinion is that technicalities occur 99% out of the incompetence of the other side in following the correct well established process, that's used day in and day out, as routine. That these aren't technicalities, to the accused, they'd be better considered legal rights.
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  #23  
Old 01-04-2021, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by redandblue View Post
Having spent 10 years working in the legal system and going to court every day of those 10 years it annoys me when people harp on about “foolish technicality’s”.

All “technicality’s” are there for a reason to help serve the best possible justice there are rarely foolish ones only foolish people that believe the press and have not been presented to the full facts and don’t have an in-depth understanding or the law.
You may have handled numerous murder cases, but I still reckon that if Chauvin gets away with anything less than a murder conviction it will only be due to some foolish technicality
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  #24  
Old 01-04-2021, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jrnicholson View Post
such as the reported technicality that George Floyd died from the drugs in his system rather than the affect of being knelt on.

I hope the court can determine the actual cause of death and lay blame with Chauvin if guilty. Unfortunately whatever the facts turn out to be the "losing side" wont accept the court's decision.
Eggshell skull??
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  #25  
Old 01-04-2021, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Denny Crane is a fascinating character in that he's a terrible lawyer, but also batting a massive winning streak, because he understands that its about the best outcome, not being right, justice or the truth. Its a fantastic study of the difference between law and justice, idealism and pragmatism, in a single character.
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  #26  
Old 01-04-2021, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Bipe View Post
Staying on Aldershot's diversion, I know someone at S&P called Noa Fux. Great name.
Again nearly twenty years ago now but I remember an accountant in San Fran with the name of “Dirk Moneymaker”. Loved that.
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  #27  
Old 01-04-2021, 01:34 PM
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Again nearly twenty years ago now but I remember an accountant in San Fran with the name of “Dirk Moneymaker”. Loved that.
There is a lawyer in this country called Wanda Osuch-Goodhead.
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  #28  
Old 01-04-2021, 01:35 PM
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  #29  
Old 01-04-2021, 02:38 PM
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Eggshell skull??
Not a lawyer, but I thought that principle applied specifically to the test of reasonableness in (civil) negligence disputes.
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  #30  
Old 01-04-2021, 04:54 PM
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Hasn't anyone seen the bodycam footage?..I dont see any comments about the release of this information..it is incredibly harrowing and poses many more questions about the police aggressive attitude and behaviour, leading up to the death. The victim is obviously distressed and no attempt made to try and diffuse things. it seems absolutely outrageous.
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  #31  
Old 01-04-2021, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Away View Post
Not a lawyer, but I thought that principle applied specifically to the test of reasonableness in (civil) negligence disputes.
Not sure if it truly applies to criminal cases but I dont think it is reasonableness. I believe the principle is that the wrongdoer has to accept the victim as they are, and is liable (for damages at least) even if they are much higher, or only resulted, because the victim has some sort of weakness or frailty (such as a thin skull, weak bones etc)

I expect Redandblue, or someone in the know, will confirm or explain
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  #32  
Old 01-04-2021, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hong_kong_hg View Post
OK please tell us which "both sides" defence arguments you find reasonable?

- The really convincing one that the knee on his neck had nothing to do with his death, as he was in such bad health and addled with drugs he was going to expire in that spot at that time anyway?

- The "I was just following orders because I was trained to kneel on people's necks for 9 minutes even after they pass out and die" argument?

- The "Actually I was distracted by the people watching trying to stop me doing my job so it's not my fault" line?

- The one about Floyd being a nasty piece of work who deserved to die anyway?
He may well have been a nasty piece of work. He may well have had drugs in his system but what happened to him is inexcusable and I hope that the cop is found guilty as charged. 9 minutes ! 9 ******* minutes!! Try simply sitting still for that long and you will get an appreciation of how long that is to at least take your knee off a little bit to allow him to breathe.
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  #33  
Old 01-04-2021, 06:43 PM
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Not sure if it truly applies to criminal cases but I dont think it is reasonableness. I believe the principle is that the wrongdoer has to accept the victim as they are, and is liable (for damages at least) even if they are much higher, or only resulted, because the victim has some sort of weakness or frailty (such as a thin skull, weak bones etc)

I expect Redandblue, or someone in the know, will confirm or explain
I found this, which suggests that in the UK it can apply in criminal cases: To view the link you have to Register or Login
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  #34  
Old 01-04-2021, 07:00 PM
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But Im sure they've watched several episodes of L.A. Law and Boston Legal so are well versed in the law.
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  #35  
Old 01-04-2021, 07:23 PM
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It's an interesting tactic the prosecution have taken in bringing to the fore Floyd's drug addiction problems.

I guess the theory is it removes some of the thunder from the defense team. Get in first and let it be part of the prosecution rather than the defense.

I was also impressed with the store clerks testimony and the accompanying store video. Floyd appears friendly if not a bit unsteady on his feet... as the clerk said, he appeared under the influence of something.

I'm not sure if it is actually relevant, but I wonder if the $20 note was actually a forgery, and if so was Floyd an innocent recipient of the note, or more involved in getting fake notes out on the street... i.e. is there a back story to all this?
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  #36  
Old 01-04-2021, 07:48 PM
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I'd like to see a focus on debate on whether a knee on the neck is justifiable, as part of standard restraint training in many police forces. It has an obvious downside in potential compression asphyxiation for the unfortunate victim and lawsuits for the officer following his/ her training because even a matter of seconds can kill, especially if the suspect is suffering high blood pressure, a cardiac issue or is susceptible to a stroke.

In the matter of George Floyd, nine mins seems very hard to justify. It seems to me that, with that many cops around for support, keeping up that compression was unnecessary even if security of yourself and fellow officers was the only concern. The suspect was cuffed and surrounded by armed police. I can't understand how the police weren't concerned at how many times Floyd stated he 'couldn't breathe.' Okay, he might be playing games but why take the chance? Yes, Floyd was mentioning breathing problems before being pinned down so his death may not be exclusively down to the compression on his neck but, even if we all agree Floyd was suffering respiratory issues beforehand, it seems the discretion the police showed was deeply flawed. At the very least, there was a callousness in their professional actions. They very possibly 'followed training' but they are also thinking human beings with the discretion to adjust their practices in the moment. They surely must have considered Floyd was in real trouble when he stopped protesting and lay still, yet the compression remained.

I fear this tragedy / atrocity may be more about the cynicism at the heart of American police training / attitude to public restrain than it is about the matter of race. We all know such a case, with a white death, would never have been newsworthy. Police shoot dead whites all the time with the media ignoring it except as a sidenote. It doesn't become an incendiary, cultural talking point. Yet there is something rotten in the heart of how police operate over there ( although there is some justification with the proliferation of guns and behaviour-altering drugs ) and while I can't get behind the idea that Floyd's death is an example of systemic racism / white oppression / ect, there can be no excuse for how the cops behaved. I'm not saying they are or were casually immune to suffering, let alone outright racist, but where is the humanity towards a man long past being any physical threat? It seems police training needs a radical overhaul and this might be the one good thing to come out of this, reducing the future deaths of people, of all races.

Trouble is, the event and the trial has been turned into a race issue where sober and important discussions of police practices and training will be called an 'evasion' and the discussion overwhelmed by the question of Race. I don't know what went through Chauvin's mind and don't pretend to know his experience as a policeman so can't opine as to what level his punishment should be. But unless it can be proven that he treated Floyd that way specifically because Floyd was black ( and I guess we will see how that goes ) then the narrative that people like BLM wish to see -that race was the ONLY factor -will not be represented in the verdict or possible sentencing. Then God knows what comes next.

Regardless of the complex legal issues in judging this officer, I'm tempted to say that it would be best if he went down for many years, even if he is not as guilty as the verdict proclaims. That may seem a horrible injustice to wish for but there are people itching to commit vast violence again under various ideological pretenses. They will have ample excuse to rampage again and the number of people killed in further 'mostly peaceful protests' if Chauvin were acquitted doesn't bear thinking about. The man needs to be sacrificed to stop the mob because that's the world today. It's better he goes down than face the violence which will be allowed to spill and rage and kill for days because of current politics surrounding race issue.

The other, more palatable, justification for throwing the book at Chauvin is to warn police officers that better judgement needs to happen. Even if you do not intend malice or harm to the person you are arresting, treating a human being in such a brutal fashion should have no place in policing, especially when the suspect is cuffed and surrounded by so many armed police. If only race wasn't being pushed as the primary aspect to this case and the central discussion could be about how militant American police are and the need for change. It would have been so much better if a famous white person has died. That would have been newsworthy enough to effect positive change but without the additional turmoil and death that has happened.
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  #37  
Old 01-04-2021, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Timbo View Post
You may have handled numerous murder cases, but I still reckon that if Chauvin gets away with anything less than a murder conviction it will only be due to some foolish technicality
Then it’s a very good job you are not on his jury or there would already be a mis trial.

I don’t think any of us would like cnn to judge someone’s innocence or guilt and then dish out their sentence, which is odd when people appear to know the guilt or innocence with this as their source of evidence.
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  #38  
Old 01-04-2021, 08:30 PM
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Not really thought about this before, but what actually were the police, and Chauvin in particular, waiting the nine minutes for?

Was it back-up, or the paramedics? And if so what for?

As stated above, there was enough cops present to have handled Floyd especially as he was handcuffed. Was it a case of needing a paddy wagon to throw him in rather than the squad SUV? I seem to recall he had already been in the back of the SUV but was kicking out so they pulled him back out.
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Old 01-04-2021, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SOUTHGATE EAGLE View Post
the number of people killed in further 'mostly peaceful protests' if Chauvin were acquitted doesn't bear thinking about. The man needs to be sacrificed to stop the mob because that's the world today. It's better he goes down than face the violence which will be allowed to spill and rage and kill for days because of current politics surrounding race issue
Just find him guilty to pacify 'the mob'. That would not be justice, but I can see your point .. you wouldn't want to be caught in the crossfire in the rioting which would probably result from an acquittal.

Somehow building bridges between poor/disadvantaged black people and the police would be a positive response in medium/long term.
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Old 01-04-2021, 08:50 PM
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Just reading up the case in court …

From the BBC website:
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"Mr Chauvin is charged with second-degree murder, which means causing death without intent. The maximum sentence is 40 years.
A third-degree murder charge was also recently added. Experts say the new charge is easier to prove in court, but carries a lesser penalty.
According to Minnesota state law, the maximum penalty for third-degree murder is 25 years."


"The jury will decide whether Mr Chauvin should serve time in prison or be acquitted."

I'm not sure exactly how 'second-degree murder' is defined in the US legal system.
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