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  #41  
Old 01-04-2021, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Louis View Post
Somehow building bridges between poor/disadvantaged black people and the police would be a positive response in medium/long term.
This would be good, however I feel that whatever verdict is reached in this case will not be found particularly satisfying for either 'side'
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  #42  
Old 01-04-2021, 10:25 PM
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Just find him guilty to pacify 'the mob'. That would not be justice, but I can see your point .. you wouldn't want to be caught in the crossfire in the rioting which would probably result from an acquittal.

Somehow building bridges between poor/disadvantaged black people and the police would be a positive response in medium/long term.
'Justice' is a concept that we are past agreeing upon these days. There's 'racial' justice and 'social' justice and other 'justices' which depend on Identity and ideology. Since morality, truth, fact and everything else, on top of 'justice' is now nothing more than an ego-related viewpoint, there's no hope of any agreement of what 'justice' construes. Americans have been split, over the last decade, by a metastasizing and divisive ideology that is antithetical to a common society. Americans are practically corralled into a POV over the Floyd death by dint of whether they voted Red or Blue. And that's just how certain people like it and want to keep it.

And any hope of improved police relations with poor, black Americans has been pushed back at least another generation. Partly that's because police ( rightly ) consider young black men to be inordinately responsible for violent crime but ( wrongly ) overreact in their response, through a combination of fear, overzealous training and even, as a minority problem, individual officer racism. Trouble is, that nuanced point is rubbed out by the BLM narrative demanding that we all recite that 'all police are racist.' ( and all white people, increasingly ) These declarations will not be conducive to building fences between police and blacks, especially as such fences have never really existed.

Race relations were a light year better than even just twenty years ago but that has been agitated into regression by certain Race Advocates, who preach the division and harmful generalizations at the heart of Critical Race Theory. That division and generalization has brought the U.S. to where it is now; where the guilt or innocence of a police officer just doesn't matter. That consideration is a luxury in the far greater game of managing outrage and anarchy, in a society now brought to a point where your identity decides everything about what is 'right' or 'wrong.'
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  #43  
Old 01-04-2021, 10:32 PM
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Jez... I just watched the body cam video of where they are putting Floyd on a stretcher type thing... Not sure why the police are doing the manhandling when the paramedics are there, and that they are shoving Floyd around like a sack of potatoes...

I appreciate you cannot judge a trial on the prosecutions opening case, but boy it is looking bad for the police so far.
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  #44  
Old 02-04-2021, 12:11 AM
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All 12 jurors must agree so a mistrial isn't out of the question but a not guilty verdict would be very surprising.
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  #45  
Old 02-04-2021, 01:15 AM
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This is basically a trial by video. No forensics or circumstantial evidence required. A very 2021 trial.
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  #46  
Old 02-04-2021, 03:52 AM
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Weak sentence, riots, then proper sentencing.
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  #47  
Old 02-04-2021, 08:12 AM
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My first job in IT, one of the senior managers was Richard Long, who absolutely owned this, by insisting on being called Dick even on his email and Door stencil, which read Long, Dick. I always respected that, not hiding, just owning it and saying to the world, yeah I know, right.
I used work with a bloke called John Thomas and another called Gunther Pollock who was inevitably referred to as C_unter Bollock. All entertaining playground stuff.
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  #48  
Old 02-04-2021, 03:52 PM
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It'll be interesting to see what the Defense team come up with as a... well, defense.

I assume resisting arrest, under the influence, a big guy, underlying health conditions.

All valid points, but in my opinion will not outweigh the total disrespect for life and arrogance shown by Chauvin.

Looking at the definitions for murder I have a hard time getting beyond Involuntary manslaughter:

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Second-degree murder
Any intentional murder with malice aforethought, but is not premeditated or planned in advance.
Voluntary manslaughter
Sometimes called a crime of passion murder, is any intentional killing that involves no prior intent to kill, and which was committed under such circumstances that would "cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed". Both this and second-degree murder are committed on the spot under a spur-of-the-moment choice, but the two differ in the magnitude of the circumstances surrounding the crime. For example, a bar fight that results in death would ordinarily constitute second-degree murder. If that same bar fight stemmed from a discovery of infidelity, however, it may be voluntary manslaughter.
Involuntary manslaughter
A killing that stems from a lack of intention to cause death but involving an intentional or negligent act leading to death. A drunk driving–related death is typically involuntary manslaughter (see also vehicular homicide, causing death by dangerous driving, gross negligence manslaughter and causing death by criminal negligence for international equivalents). Note that the "unintentional" element here refers to the lack of intent to bring about the death. All three crimes above feature an intent to kill, whereas involuntary manslaughter is "unintentional", because the killer did not intend for a death to result from their intentional actions. If there is a presence of intention it relates only to the intent to cause a violent act which brings about the death, but not an intention to bring about the death itself.
I fear that will not appease the masses though as it carries minimal prison time (2 to 4 years).
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  #49  
Old 02-04-2021, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Hedgehog View Post
Looking at the definitions for murder I have a hard time getting beyond Involuntary manslaughter:
I wonder why the charge was second degree (and also third degree) murder?
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  #50  
Old 02-04-2021, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Louis View Post
I wonder why the charge was second degree (and also third degree) murder?
I believe 3rd degree murder is a Minnesota thing (and a few other states). Seems pretty much the same as Voluntary manslaughter elsewhere.

There is no doubt in my mind (or anyone's mind) that Chauvin's actions killed Floyd. But I too am finding it hard to make the step to 2nd degree murder.

My question is if charged with 2nd degree murder, can the jury downgrade that to Voluntary or Involuntary Manslaughter without getting him let off scot-free? In other words, is it 2nd degree murder of nothing?
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  #51  
Old 02-04-2021, 04:17 PM
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I think there are two charges now - 2nd degree AND 3rd degree murder.
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  #52  
Old 02-04-2021, 04:22 PM
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I think there are two charges now - 2nd degree AND 3rd degree murder.
Chauvin is facing three charges: second degree unintentional felony murder, third degree “depraved mind” murder, and second degree manslaughter.

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  #53  
Old 02-04-2021, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Hedgehog View Post
Chauvin is facing three charges: second degree unintentional felony murder, third degree “depraved mind” murder, and second degree manslaughter.

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Thanks. Link didn't work for me. I just found another article about the three charges, with some useful explanations ...

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  #54  
Old 02-04-2021, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by redandblue View Post
Having spent 10 years working in the legal system and going to court every day of those 10 years it annoys me when people harp on about “foolish technicality’s”.

All “technicality’s” are there for a reason to help serve the best possible justice there are rarely foolish ones only foolish people that believe the press and have not been presented to the full facts and don’t have an in-depth understanding or the law.
like when rich people escape driving bans when joe bloggs never does. Example: alex ferguson, "erm my client wanted the toilet-urgently, thats why he was doing 100mph"
Try that one next time Joe Bloggs....
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  #55  
Old 02-04-2021, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by liberal clubber View Post
like when rich people escape driving bans when joe bloggs never does. Example: alex ferguson, "erm my client wanted the toilet-urgently, thats why he was doing 100mph"
Try that one next time Joe Bloggs....
Nothing to with “foolish technicality’s” it’s all to do with the quality of your lawyer and sadly this does make a difference. It’s the same with everything if you have more money you can hire better tradesmen. The law and the technicality’s are all still the same
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  #56  
Old 02-04-2021, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Hedgehog View Post
It's an interesting tactic the prosecution have taken in bringing to the fore Floyd's drug addition problems.
What are drug addittion problems?

Cocaine plus heroin = speedball

Cocaine plus morphine = better rush

LSD plus thc = more colourful trips

Whisky + plus cocaine come down = fighting

Testosterone plus steroids = Olympics
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  #57  
Old 02-04-2021, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by redandblue View Post
Nothing to with “foolish technicality’s” it’s all to do with the quality of your lawyer and sadly this does make a difference. It’s the same with everything if you have more money you can hire better tradesmen. The law and the technicality’s are all still the same
Good lawyers are great but if you can afford a judge they are even better.
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  #58  
Old 02-04-2021, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
What are drug addittion problems?

Cocaine plus heroin = speedball

Cocaine plus morphine = better rush

LSD plus thc = more colourful trips

Whisky + plus cocaine come down = fighting

Testosterone plus steroids = Olympics
Or just ******* predictive text and me not paying attention...
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  #59  
Old 02-04-2021, 07:26 PM
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Quite a few fellow officers sticking the knife in. Seems a little unusual and maybe telling.
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  #60  
Old 02-04-2021, 07:31 PM
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Not really thought about this before, but what actually were the police, and Chauvin in particular, waiting the nine minutes for?

Was it back-up, or the paramedics? And if so what for?

As stated above, there was enough cops present to have handled Floyd especially as he was handcuffed. Was it a case of needing a paddy wagon to throw him in rather than the squad SUV? I seem to recall he had already been in the back of the SUV but was kicking out so they pulled him back out.
This is an interesting aspect of the case, and I think I remember the police basically saying he was resisting arrest, and that had he stopped resisting arrest, they would have immediately stopped restraining him. I may be wrong here, but I might have heard on the radio that he was originally taken out of the police vehicle ironically because he was claiming that he had breathing/health problems.

Yesterday I read this interesting article To view the link you have to Register or Login
which mentions that Chauvin had 17 complaints and a brutality lawsuit against him in the course of his career, including other incidents involving the use of his knee on the necks of suspects for an inappropriate period of time.
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