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  #111441  
Old 17-08-2019, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Skin Up View Post
...

Referendums are not legally binding but to the best of my knowledge have always been implemented (in the UK at least) so it would set a precedent. How would you feel circa 2040 if you are on the winning team of one of the potential refs above but Westminster just replies "LOL too difficult"?
They can be, if parliament chooses them to be so. Of course, you would then set a threshold of 60% or so. That way you can have some certainty that the result is the settled will of the people.

Only an idiot, or someone with no respect for the democratic system, would make a major constitutional change on a 50% + 1 referendum result.

So, no, I would not worry about the precedent.
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  #111442  
Old 17-08-2019, 06:54 AM
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Both those things are true, which is the saddest thing of all. There are too many huge problems to make it a result that can be treated by the winners as the licence for mayhem we're living through, but of course, Skin Up is right.
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  #111443  
Old 17-08-2019, 07:28 AM
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Both those things are true, which is the saddest thing of all. There are too many huge problems to make it a result that can be treated by the winners as the licence for mayhem we're living through, but of course, Skin Up is right.
Yes, he is right, but you cannot blame the lack of implementation of the 2016 referendum on remainers. The ERG are rabid quitters and there are around 40 of them in parliament and they are just as culpable as the remainer MPs for rejecting May's deal and an orderly exit on time.

This is why after three years and the intended use of a no deal exit now by disaster politicians there is an urgent need for another referendum. If Johnson stays as PM with his determination to leave with no deal regardless of the consequences on the British people whatever they may be, then the questions should be "Do you wish to leave the EU with no deal? and "Do you wish to remain in the EU?". The outcome can be enshrined in law by a parliamentary bill before the referendum, and implemented without further impasse and division.
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  #111444  
Old 17-08-2019, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Skin Up View Post
Is no one concerned about the precedent that would be set if the referendum result is not implemented in some form?

Over the next 30 years we can expect referendums on Scottish and possibly Welsh independence, voting reform, Irish unification, elected second chamber, further EU integration (if we stay), rejoining the EU (if we leave), greater power for certain regions and that's not to mention countless unforseen events that may require public approval (climate change and automation might make drastic changes to the publics lifestyle that leave a variety of controversial solutions for example).

Referendums are not legally binding but to the best of my knowledge have always been implemented (in the UK at least) so it would set a precedent. How would you feel circa 2040 if you are on the winning team of one of the potential refs above but Westminster just replies "LOL too difficult"?

not really i would adopt this approach

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  #111445  
Old 17-08-2019, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
Both those things are true, which is the saddest thing of all. There are too many huge problems to make it a result that can be treated by the winners as the licence for mayhem we're living through, but of course, Skin Up is right.
no he isn't other countries have dealt with badly run referendums se my other link.
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  #111446  
Old 17-08-2019, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skin Up View Post
Is no one concerned about the precedent that would be set if the referendum result is not implemented in some form?

Over the next 30 years we can expect referendums on Scottish and possibly Welsh independence, voting reform, Irish unification, elected second chamber, further EU integration (if we stay), rejoining the EU (if we leave), greater power for certain regions and that's not to mention countless unforseen events that may require public approval (climate change and automation might make drastic changes to the publics lifestyle that leave a variety of controversial solutions for example).

Referendums are not legally binding but to the best of my knowledge have always been implemented (in the UK at least) so it would set a precedent. How would you feel circa 2040 if you are on the winning team of one of the potential refs above but Westminster just replies "LOL too difficult"?
You mean like when the Tories didnt want to accept the result of the Welsh referendum?
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  #111447  
Old 17-08-2019, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skin Up View Post
Is no one concerned about the precedent that would be set if the referendum result is not implemented in some form?

Over the next 30 years we can expect referendums on Scottish and possibly Welsh independence, voting reform, Irish unification, elected second chamber, further EU integration (if we stay), rejoining the EU (if we leave), greater power for certain regions and that's not to mention countless unforseen events that may require public approval (climate change and automation might make drastic changes to the publics lifestyle that leave a variety of controversial solutions for example).

Referendums are not legally binding but to the best of my knowledge have always been implemented (in the UK at least) so it would set a precedent. How would you feel circa 2040 if you are on the winning team of one of the potential refs above but Westminster just replies "LOL too difficult"?
I agree however we should do it chronologically. The Good Friday agreement referendum predates the brexit referendum and therefore should take precedent. Otherwise those that were on the winning team of that referendum are watching Westminster replying “lol too difficult”.

Or do you think only referendums that you agree with should take precedent?
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  #111448  
Old 17-08-2019, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skin Up View Post
Is no one concerned about the precedent that would be set if the referendum result is not implemented in some form?

Over the next 30 years we can expect referendums on Scottish and possibly Welsh independence, voting reform, Irish unification, elected second chamber, further EU integration (if we stay), rejoining the EU (if we leave), greater power for certain regions and that's not to mention countless unforseen events that may require public approval (climate change and automation might make drastic changes to the publics lifestyle that leave a variety of controversial solutions for example).

Referendums are not legally binding but to the best of my knowledge have always been implemented (in the UK at least) so it would set a precedent. How would you feel circa 2040 if you are on the winning team of one of the potential refs above but Westminster just replies "LOL too difficult"?

The Leave campaign broke the law in the 2016 referendum.

There's already been convictions, and the electoral commission has passed further evidence of law breaking to the Metropolitan Police.

The police have so far failed to act on the more recent evidence, for 'some reason'.

Regardless of that, the result of the 2016 referendum isn't valid because the law was broken.

Democracy demands another vote.
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  #111449  
Old 17-08-2019, 12:20 PM
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Maybe future referendums should include a confirmation vote? A Scottish independence referendum could be along the lines of instructing the Scottish parliament to enter into an independence agreement with Westminster and then a second vote once the fine details are know and people have a clearer idea of what independence will actually look like. IIRC Jacob Rees Mogg was actually in favour of this for Brexit before he realised he might lose.
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  #111450  
Old 17-08-2019, 04:07 PM
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As I have mentioned previously, I have a problem with the way the referendum was counted on such a granular basis. Was it really strictly necessary to do so by constituency when only the aggregate numbers had any bearing on the outcome? The consequences are the horrible levels of divisiveness we have across the whole country, and politicians being hung out to dry when their views diverge from their constituents.
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  #111451  
Old 17-08-2019, 04:14 PM
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One wonders (but hopes) whether Tories will take any notice of a respected Tory MP.

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It's a sorry state of affairs when Dominic Grieve can be more effctive opposing Johnson than Corbyn.
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  #111452  
Old 17-08-2019, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
As I have mentioned previously, I have a problem with the way the referendum was counted on such a granular basis. Was it really strictly necessary to do so by constituency when only the aggregate numbers had any bearing on the outcome? The consequences are the horrible levels of divisiveness we have across the whole country, and politicians being hung out to dry when their views diverge from their constituents.
That's an interesting point. How many MP's in remain areas have tried to get their constituents to change their minds ?
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  #111453  
Old 17-08-2019, 06:09 PM
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That's an interesting point. How many MP's in remain areas have tried to get their constituents to change their minds ?
Our MP, who was elected in a by-election to replace David Cameron, just takes the line that he was elected in the context of his predecessor having made a commitment to respect the result of the referendum, and hence we must leave the EU.

We have exchanged many emails on Brexit and he knows that he is extremely unlikely to persuade me to change my mind, just as I know that he is an ardent Brexiteer and is equally unlikely to change his mind.

Essentially, he just keeps saying that we must leave the EU.
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  #111454  
Old 18-08-2019, 08:11 AM
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Even the cabinet office is now using project fear tactics to warn against the consequences of Brexit.

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Old 18-08-2019, 08:32 AM
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Gina Miller on Sky Sophie Ridge, right now 9.00am Sunday 18th August, says the government has confirmed that it would be illegal to porogue parliament to force through no deal. She has shown the letter to Sky.

Without going to court Gina and her legal team have called Johnsons bluff, it is all bluster... which is no real surprise.
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  #111456  
Old 18-08-2019, 08:58 AM
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Gina Miller on Sky Sophie Ridge, right now 9.00am Sunday 18th August, says the government has confirmed that it would be illegal to porogue parliament to force through no deal. She has shown the letter to Sky.

Without going to court Gina and her legal team have called Johnsons bluff, it is all bluster... which is no real surprise.
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  #111457  
Old 18-08-2019, 12:15 PM
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Even the cabinet office is now using project fear tactics to warn against the consequences of Brexit.

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These are not 'project fear tactics' at all. The cabinet office is merely acquainting the government (and us) with reality. And not before time either.
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  #111458  
Old 18-08-2019, 04:54 PM
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Even the cabinet office is now using project fear tactics to warn against the consequences of Brexit.

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Strange as the Sunday Times couched in terms of a senior Whitehall source saying these are realistic scenarios. Who would I believe, and impartial member of the Civil Service or a leading Brexit politician with an axe to grind?

To me Project Fear is a label to bury what is perhaps an inconvenient truth. Those out there who think a no deal won't involve dislocations seriously need to get their head out of the sand, or their arse. Its up there with 350m going to the NHS.

We come back to how inept the current bunch in Westminster are. If this allowed to run then we end up with no deal for purely political reasons, and then we have to rely on this lot to manage us out of the mess. They are clueless, there is no chance and if we are to leave it is the single reason why there must be an orderly exit.

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Old 18-08-2019, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
These are not 'project fear tactics' at all. The cabinet office is merely acquainting the government (and us) with reality. And not before time either.
I was being ironic. Both you and I know that anything that warns sensibly and impartially about Brexit is passed off as Project fear by Brexiteers.

We are after all sick of experts.
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Old 19-08-2019, 07:01 AM
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Even the cabinet office is now using project fear tactics to warn against the consequences of Brexit.

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Only 10 weeks till we find out. Incidentally the French Government have restated today that full customs checks and duties will be applied from midnight Nov 1st - I wonder how confident Boris really is?.
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