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  #111401  
Old 15-08-2019, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete79 View Post
Such as?
That the EU were lieing when they agreed no further integration for the UK would be added to the treaties?

That there is no mechanism to leave the backstop?

The EU are trying to harmoginise culture across Europe?

The UK were outvoted in the EU and our interests were being usurped by Eurozone nations?

Last edited by Hpalace; 15-08-2019 at 10:19 AM.
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  #111402  
Old 15-08-2019, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by weltklasse View Post
in what way will Brexit benefit the welsh language?
I don't suppose it will. Not every point is about brexit, even on the brexit thread. I was making the point that cultures change and/or decline over time. The Welsh assembly will need to make a concerted effort to revive the Welsh language and other aspects of its culture. Naturally this is more a concern of older people rather than younger people - but perhaps you don't miss something until its gone.

The issue of course is that Wales is part of the larger UK which overwhelmingly speaks english. The UK has a huge influence on Welsh culture. The EU has a huge, albeit more recent, effect on UK culture(s). Maybe this is a good thing, or some good some bad. But to pretend that it isn't happening, and that some people don't like it, is just a bit obtuse.
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  #111403  
Old 15-08-2019, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by weltklasse View Post
in what way will Brexit benefit the welsh language?
And the EU invests a lot of regional development money to support retaining local language, culture etc etc, but donít let facts get in the way eh?
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  #111404  
Old 15-08-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
That the EU were lieing when they agreed no further integration for the UK would be added to the treaties?

That there is no mechanism to leave the backstop?

The EU are trying to harmoginise culture across Europe?
I never said the EU lied. Its possible for the EU to become more integrated without it happening at treaty level where every EU state can use its veto. In fact with the advent of the eurozone and monetary union its impossible for most of the EU not to become more intergrated as their economies integrate. With freedom of movement the EU is literally becoming more integrated each year as people move. The UK has a veto for neither of these things. I said that integration would continue to happen and responses to my post conflated integration of all kinds with the kind of integration that can be stopped by veto. As for whether the EU would add something that was already the case - who knows.

In terms of the backstop I alluded to their being no unilateral exit for the whole UK. This is true.

Regarding homogenization of europe. Of course they are. If I believed that the EU was a force for good I would want them to pursue at least a degree of homogenization in europe. Sharing the same currrency and agreeing to abind by its rules is by definition homogenization. Every society needs it to some extent. Consider the case of the low emissions zone in Madrid. The Mayor of Madrid was going to scrap it (which is crazy), citing traffic as part of Madrids 'culture' - but it would contravene EU standards and they would be fined by the EU commission. Now I think that 'homogenizing' low air pollution targets across the EU is a good thing but should the EU or the elected politicians of Madrid be making the decision?
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  #111405  
Old 15-08-2019, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Blue Eagle View Post
And the EU invests a lot of regional development money to support retaining local language, culture etc etc, but donít let facts get in the way eh?
I never said the EU was having a negative effect on the Welsh language!

But don't let facts get in the way eh?

Honestly, some of you remain advocates need to calm down.
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  #111406  
Old 15-08-2019, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete79 View Post
I never said the EU lied. Its possible for the EU to become more integrated without it happening at treaty level where every EU state can use its veto. In fact with the advent of the eurozone and monetary union its impossible for most of the EU not to become more intergrated as their economies integrate. With freedom of movement the EU is literally becoming more integrated each year as people move. The UK has a veto for neither of these things. I said that integration would continue to happen and responses to my post conflated integration of all kinds with the kind of integration that can be stopped by veto. As for whether the EU would add something that was already the case - who knows.

In terms of the backstop I alluded to their being no unilateral exit for the UK. This is true.

Regarding homogenization of europe. Of course they are. If I believed that the EU was a force for good I would want them to pursue at least a degree of homogenization in europe. Sharing the same currrency and agreeing to abind by its rules is by definition homogenization. Every society needs it to some extent. Consider the case of the low emissions zone in Madrid. The Mayor of Madrid was going to scrap it (which is crazy), citing traffic as part of Madrids 'culture' - but it would contravene EU standards and they would be fined by the EU commission. Now I think that 'homogenizing' low air pollution targets across the EU is a good thing but should the EU or the elected politicians of Madrid be making the decision?
While I accept you didn't specifically say they lied you certainly implied it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete79 View Post
You believed them?
Despite the fact the EU had repeatedly agreed to the UK not integrating in major stuff.

The UK can leave unilaterally. Parliament would vote to leave the backstop and then we would leave the backstop. Parliament is sovereign.
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  #111407  
Old 15-08-2019, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
While I accept you didn't specifically say they lied you certainly implied it



Despite the fact the EU had repeatedly agreed to the UK not integrating in major stuff.

The UK can leave unilaterally. Parliament would vote to leave the backstop and then we would leave the backstop. Parliament is sovereign.
I did imply it - because I'm sceptical not because I'm certain they were lying. Which is why I didn't say they were lying. Politicians statements, UK or EU, should be met with scepticism and the possibility they're lying, this isn't an anti EU trope but a matter of fact. Regardless, it was just a meaningless gesture for Cameron whose 'renegotiation' was nothing more than a fudge.

I don't think I have repeated any anti EU tropes.
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  #111408  
Old 15-08-2019, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete79 View Post
I did imply it - because I'm sceptical not because I'm certain they were lying. Which is why I didn't say they were lying. Politicians statements, UK or EU, should be met with scepticism and the possibility they're lying, this isn't an anti EU trope but a matter of fact. Regardless, it was just a meaningless gesture for Cameron whose 'renegotiation' was nothing more than a fudge.

I don't think I have repeated any anti EU tropes.
It was actually a pretty good re-negotiation however it was sold to the UK populace as a waste of time and frankly unless he had come back with an end to FOM and no budget payments so fervent was the feeling it would have always been sold to the UK populace as meaningless.

It was decided before he went that whatever he got would not be good enough and the referendum would happen.
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  #111409  
Old 15-08-2019, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
It was actually a pretty good re-negotiation however it was sold to the UK populace as a waste of time and frankly unless he had come back with an end to FOM and no budget payments so fervent was the feeling it would have always been sold to the UK populace as meaningless.

It was decided before he went that whatever he got would not be good enough and the referendum would happen.
Yes, this is true. But I think an end to FOM would have done it even if the payments stayed. That this was never going to happen is what made it a fudge.
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  #111410  
Old 15-08-2019, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete79 View Post
In terms of the backstop I alluded to their being no unilateral exit for the whole UK. This is true.

Regarding homogenization of europe. Of course they are. If I believed that the EU was a force for good I would want them to pursue at least a degree of homogenization in europe. Sharing the same currrency and agreeing to abind by its rules is by definition homogenization. Every society needs it to some extent. Consider the case of the low emissions zone in Madrid. The Mayor of Madrid was going to scrap it (which is crazy), citing traffic as part of Madrids 'culture' - but it would contravene EU standards and they would be fined by the EU commission. Now I think that 'homogenizing' low air pollution targets across the EU is a good thing but should the EU or the elected politicians of Madrid be making the decision?
It was a Spanish judge who stopped our mayor from effecting a false moratorium on fines for entering the low emission zone with polluting cars, in fact - but you're right that cities have to meet pollution targets, or face EU fines.
I'm comfortable with decisions being taken in that sense by a pan European elected body, while the way to meet those targets is decided locally. As is the case.
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  #111411  
Old 15-08-2019, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
It was a Spanish judge who stopped our mayor from effecting a false moratorium on fines for entering the low emission zone with polluting cars, in fact - but you're right that cities have to meet pollution targets, or face EU fines.
I'm comfortable with decisions being taken in that sense by a pan European elected body, while the way to meet those targets is decided locally. As is the case.
Sure, I think that it might be better for some decisions to be made in such a way. But others may have valid reasons to disagree e.g businesses which have to pay more. They may dislike it if the charge is levied by their elected local government but resent it if its due to EU mandates in which they have less/no representation. The EU commission isn't elected (as far as I know) but I don't know whether the emissions targets and there enforement were decided by them or the EU's elected parliment.
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  #111412  
Old 15-08-2019, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete79 View Post
Sure, I think that it might be better for some decisions to be made in such a way. But others may have valid reasons to disagree e.g businesses which have to pay more. They may dislike it if the charge is levied by their elected local government but resent it if its due to EU mandates in which they have less/no representation. The EU commission isn't elected (as far as I know) but I don't know whether the emissions targets and there enforement were decided by them or the EU's elected parliment.
Happy to be corrected on this but it would appear the proposals came from the commission but were approved by the council and parliament.

Frankly if the EU commission decided unilaterally (which they haven't) that the air we have to breathe has to be cleaner then I am all for their unelected dictatorship surrounding this issue. The fact that our government or Madrid's government fail to meet these targets should be the worry really.
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  #111413  
Old 15-08-2019, 11:51 AM
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Madrid Centro - where I live - voted massively for Mas Madrid and other parties which introduced, and planned to extend, the emission free zone. Is it fair for the wealthier and less occupied areas to our north, to vote to pollute us?

These decisions have to get past the european parliament, council and commission. It's a canard to suggest they are taken and implemented by unelected bodies.
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  #111414  
Old 15-08-2019, 11:53 AM
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why have a race to reduce standards?
Completely agree, but Halal meat is here to stay I'm afraid.
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  #111415  
Old 15-08-2019, 12:06 PM
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Completely agree, but Halal meat is here to stay I'm afraid.
I would certainly share concerns that certain types of meat that are not stunned before death is totally unacceptable. However circa 60% of halal meat is stunned first which eliminates 60% of that concern. Compare that to kosher meat where 0% of kosher meat is stunned in advance.

So when someone specifies Halal meat ahead of kosher meat, in relation to animal welfare, they need to be careful or people will simply assume they are Islamaphobic.
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  #111416  
Old 15-08-2019, 12:11 PM
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  #111417  
Old 15-08-2019, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete79 View Post

In terms of the backstop I alluded to their being no unilateral exit for the whole UK. This is true.
even if it was true, it has nothing to do with Brussels and everything to do with an agreement signed between the UK and Ireland. That there is a huge complication in implementing the (whole of the) UK unilaterally exiting the EU, is something that all pro-Brexit parties/groups should have admitted long before any vote took place.
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  #111418  
Old 15-08-2019, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete79 View Post
I never said the EU lied. Its possible for the EU to become more integrated without it happening at treaty level where every EU state can use its veto. In fact with the advent of the eurozone and monetary union its impossible for most of the EU not to become more intergrated as their economies integrate. With freedom of movement the EU is literally becoming more integrated each year as people move. The UK has a veto for neither of these things. I said that integration would continue to happen and responses to my post conflated integration of all kinds with the kind of integration that can be stopped by veto. As for whether the EU would add something that was already the case - who knows.

In terms of the backstop I alluded to their being no unilateral exit for the whole UK. This is true.

Regarding homogenization of europe. Of course they are. If I believed that the EU was a force for good I would want them to pursue at least a degree of homogenization in europe. Sharing the same currrency and agreeing to abind by its rules is by definition homogenization. Every society needs it to some extent. Consider the case of the low emissions zone in Madrid. The Mayor of Madrid was going to scrap it (which is crazy), citing traffic as part of Madrids 'culture' - but it would contravene EU standards and they would be fined by the EU commission. Now I think that 'homogenizing' low air pollution targets across the EU is a good thing but should the EU or the elected politicians of Madrid be making the decision?
Regarding the single market and economic integration, this is happening largely because of technological change and general progress, the legal entity called the single market is merely a recognition of and facilitator of real world changes.

As for the backstop, Parliament can remove that at any time through a vote, however there is the matter of abrogating treaties and destruction of historic ties and obligations that would make it a very bad idea.

Leavers just have to recognise that the old world of discrete nations that are masters of their own fate is something from the past.
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  #111419  
Old 15-08-2019, 12:42 PM
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Ok. In your example you weren't comparing like for like - so the hypothetical parisian should be compared with a Mancunian rather than a rural yorkshire farmer. Nethertheless I agree that its quite common to identify with people from different cultures/societies more than 'your own' if you match up socio economic demographics.

Regarding cultures. Well, yes. Its possible to divide the UK into many different regions each with 'diffferent' cultures and thus say there is no 'english culture'. You could divide streets in the same town and people in the same room in a similar way. I suppose I'm refering to broad cultural levels above the smaller differences between regions and the US is a good exmaple. Sure, you can identify many distinct cultural aspects in the US and use them to label a 'culture' distinct from other US cultures but the US is defined more by its shared cultural aspects rather than its dinstinct one's, as important as they are. And every American, From San Diego to Maine, shares and believes in them and it defines their country and an 'American culture' which makes space for the distinct, non shared cultural aspects which may eventually also become mainstream. The American union works because of a greater degree of homogenization than we have, or would want to have, in Europe. This relative homogenization was, for example, very costly for native Americans who are struggling to retain their numerous cultures.

So although the EU/UK/USA will not produce 'identikit' people to suggest that homogenization and/or loss of culture can not happen because no one place has one culture is, I think, missing the point a bit - cultures change over time. How do we want our various UK cultures to change?
In terms of culture, I would present the case that the biggest threat to the UK culture and identity is the influx of American culture rather than a homogenised EU culture (that doesn't exist - Its 28 very different countries). A quick glance around the UK will show that Americianisation of the UK is occuring across media (Movies, TV and Music), Franchising our high streets (Starbucks, McDonalds, KFC etc) and even food and drinks (Budwiesser, Miller, US craft beers).

Even when we talk about Italian food, we're often talking about American Pizza and US Italian food.

The influences of Europe, largely remain that outliers. Because of language difficulties, the capacity of European countries to project cultural domination and change in the UK has always been limited. In effect, our European cousins tend to be engaged more in cultural exchange, due to the requirement of translation.

EU culture is really limited to things that generally should be seen as positive. Democratic traditions, Human Rights, International Mutual Interest and Co-Operation, lower levels of censorship and promotion of individual rights and responsibility.

The impact on British culture is minimal in terms of Europe. It always has been, because the primary means by which culture is produced and shared is lingustic - Which actually means, we're far more an influencer of European cultures than they are of us (admitedly they're likely more threatened by cultural change from the US, than the UK).

The notion of a threat to English or British culture is a convenient phrase banded around, that has been picked up from the Far Right, during the 80s - When the BNP effectively found itself unable to gain traction from directly racist phrasing, it began to shift its lingustic tone away from black or brown, towards the preservation of British culture - As a means of garnering support among the working classes. Increasingly the right, including people among the Conservative party, talk about preservation of culture (and always present that its under threat from Migrants or the EU or Single Mothers etc) simply because its become a good working sound byte - that plays well with nationalists without alienating moderates.

What they mean is foriegn / alien, non-English speaking, middle and upper middle class, white English.

Its just a re-phrasing, it has absolutely no basis, the way that they use it, in Social Sciences (which have a lot to say about culture)
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  #111420  
Old 15-08-2019, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by wedgetail View Post
Regarding the single market and economic integration, this is happening largely because of technological change and general progress, the legal entity called the single market is merely a recognition of and facilitator of real world changes.

As for the backstop, Parliament can remove that at any time through a vote, however there is the matter of abrogating treaties and destruction of historic ties and obligations that would make it a very bad idea.

Leavers just have to recognise that the old world of discrete nations that are masters of their own fate is something from the past.
The single market is the best arguement for staying in the EU. Its monumentally beneficial to the UK, as it allows us to be part of the worlds largest and most influential trade block. Not to mention that our primary economic interest (financial services) is kind of built on it. Its likely as well that in a large part, our foriegn manufacturing businesses in the UK, operate here because it allows their products access to the free trade area of the EU.

There are I believe a number of good reasons to leave the EU, the Single Market and European Trade Block, just isn't one of them and it will be the loss of this, that represents the biggest risks in terms of Leave.

I'd be surprised if many countries will sign trade deal with the UK that are comparable to the benefits we recieve through EU membership - because we'll lack the leverage of 28 markets.
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