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  #901  
Old 17-08-2019, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris K View Post
If you look on companies house for a company called "Palace Midco" you'll see there's 107m on the balance sheet. 92m from them in December 2015.

The accounts up to end FY2018 show it's still there
The company has called up (and paid) share capital of 92m and it borrowed 15m from the shareholders. So it had 107m which it used to buy the club. So the 107m is simply the investment in the club. What they bought.

The loan is not due to start being repaid until 2020. For accounting purposes it is initially recorded at 12.5m and increases yearly until it hits somewhere around 15m by 2022.
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  #902  
Old 17-08-2019, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by dave_who_ru View Post
You will find that the loaned money has increased. The original CPFC 2010 loans were repaid but then new ones put in.

Details in the Palace Holdco accounts.
Yeah but that was at June 18, the way the purse strings have been tightened recently I'd be surprised if a lot of the funding hadn't been repaid since then.

To be fair if I was the Americans I would be very jittery at the way the club's finances have been run. 78% wages/income is a ridiculous place to be, especially when there are so few genuine saleable assets. I know that attempts are being made to reduce this but realistically all that's happened is the squad size has reduced but the average wage is still high, in fact higher than before.

There doesn't appear to be any long term strategy coming from the club. Everything seems to be day to day firefighting.

Last edited by Billy Rhino; 17-08-2019 at 09:25 AM.
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  #903  
Old 17-08-2019, 11:31 AM
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  #904  
Old 17-08-2019, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy Rhino View Post
No, but the way you made it sound was as if they were. The player "funding" was repaid and they clearly aren't "funding" anymore. These guys are here for one reason only, to make a profit, and don't seemed bothered at all about actually making us successful.

If we get a new stand out of it then I won't be too bothered but it doesn't even look like they want to see that through. Apart from some short term loans to protect their investment they done sweet FA, so don't deserve the "they've funded everything" tag you've given them. What really funds the club is the TV money.
So without their help who would've actually funded the Allardyce January transfer window, even as a short term loan?

SP wouldn't have had that sort of dosh down the back of the sofa. I'd be interested to know. Without that input we would've more than likely been back in the championship. Too easy to blame the americans on this message board.
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  #905  
Old 18-08-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Wycombe Eagle#2 View Post
So without their help who would've actually funded the Allardyce January transfer window, even as a short term loan?

SP wouldn't have had that sort of dosh down the back of the sofa. I'd be interested to know. Without that input we would've more than likely been back in the championship. Too easy to blame the americans on this message board.
That's a bit like thanking your bank for "funding" your house. They invested that money because they realised they had no choice but to protect their investment.

We were still making a profit at the time up until that point, as the Bolasie and Gayle sales covered most of the Benteke and Townsend deals. Where the control was lost was in wages and strategy, hence why we had to panic buy in Jan 2017.

As I said, even though the Americans approved the Benteke transfer, ultimately Parish is to blame for losing control there. However, my issue here is the Americans "investment" appears to be purely based around hanging on to the tv money, and not pushing the club on. The reason Zaha wants to leave is for this exact reason. I don't necessarily blame them for that as such but to try and heap praise on them whilst we're shopping around the bargain basement shops just doesn't feel right.

What they need to do is get together with Parish and totally overhaul our transfer strategy. Why it's taken so long to get an international scouting network that Freedman mentioned is beyond a joke. The idea that our current academy players will bale us out in the next couple of years is just wishful thinking.
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  #906  
Old 18-08-2019, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Billy Rhino View Post
Yeah but that was at June 18, the way the purse strings have been tightened recently I'd be surprised if a lot of the funding hadn't been repaid since then.

To be fair if I was the Americans I would be very jittery at the way the club's finances have been run. 78% wages/income is a ridiculous place to be, especially when there are so few genuine saleable assets. I know that attempts are being made to reduce this but realistically all that's happened is the squad size has reduced but the average wage is still high, in fact higher than before.

There doesn't appear to be any long term strategy coming from the club. Everything seems to be day to day firefighting.
I am not sure what you mean by not many sellable assets. Most of the first team is sellable, some for higher amounts than others. Zaha, Townsend, Luka, Meyer, Guiata, Shlupp, PvA and Sakho would all command a decent fee totally over 100m and then even the older and less established players could get something but much smaller.
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  #907  
Old 19-08-2019, 06:38 PM
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Suprised to see the Ice Hockey team they bought also had a shit head coach in the name of DeBoer who got the sack. They've suffered consistent defeats and had shit loads of injuries during their tenure.

Interesting to see tweets at the time of the takeover calling it a bad one as they use their clubs solely as businesses.

Perhaps they're a big part of the problem at the minute.
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  #908  
Old 19-08-2019, 11:34 PM
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I am not sure what you mean by not many sellable assets. Most of the first team is sellable, some for higher amounts than others. Zaha, Townsend, Luka, Meyer, Guiata, Shlupp, PvA and Sakho would all command a decent fee totally over 100m and then even the older and less established players could get something but much smaller.
Obviously Zaha is a saleable asset but I dont think there would be much interest in the rest of them due to their relative high wages I.e. If we put them up for sale would we get a decent fee. There was very little interest in any of our players again this summer after we sold AWB and this has been a common theme, hence why our transfer budget is so limited.

Of course I realise we don't want to sell our first team players anyway but we don't have any real young talent coming through nor have we signed any. Riedewald is fast becoming another Jordon Mutchesque disaster and Sorloth will probably never play for us again. Other than that the cupboard is bare and I'm starting to think we may even regret not taking the 52m bid from Everton for Wilf.
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  #909  
Old 20-08-2019, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Billy Rhino View Post
That's a bit like thanking your bank for "funding" your house. They invested that money because they realised they had no choice but to protect their investment.

We were still making a profit at the time up until that point, as the Bolasie and Gayle sales covered most of the Benteke and Townsend deals. Where the control was lost was in wages and strategy, hence why we had to panic buy in Jan 2017.

As I said, even though the Americans approved the Benteke transfer, ultimately Parish is to blame for losing control there. However, my issue here is the Americans "investment" appears to be purely based around hanging on to the tv money, and not pushing the club on. The reason Zaha wants to leave is for this exact reason. I don't necessarily blame them for that as such but to try and heap praise on them whilst we're shopping around the bargain basement shops just doesn't feel right.

What they need to do is get together with Parish and totally overhaul our transfer strategy. Why it's taken so long to get an international scouting network that Freedman mentioned is beyond a joke. The idea that our current academy players will bale us out in the next couple of years is just wishful thinking.
Sorry I'm not getting this. I agree with a lot you usually say but I'm getting tired of people using the Americans as scaoe goats. They were investors. They invested and have now called in their chips. Do you think 3 of the original 4 that saved us just walked away with nothing? Of course they didn't. They took they original share and whatever profit they sold for. SP will do the same if and when he goes. None of the original 4 will walk away leaving their own money in the club so why the hell should the Americans?

I don't think the TV money is the only issues here. They have billions and can throw money at us if they wanted. The problem is they can't due to FFP and our shi*** infrastructure. I think the main issue is the lack of progress on the stadium. They put aside nearly 100m for redevelopment which currently can't be used. Until that ever gets sorted we're sitting ducks and not attractive to anyone as we can't grow. I really don't get the vitriol the Americans gome in for. They put up the funds and the project has stalled due to the ground development going no where. So as investors they quite rightly want out if they can't see progress. I don't see what wrong with that.
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  #910  
Old 20-08-2019, 07:25 AM
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its not about vitriol towards them, as I said I don't blame them for wanting the club to be more self sufficient. What I was responding to was the idea they deserve loads of praise for funding the club, all the while we're struggling to sign players.

I guess we'll only know exactly what has happened when the accounts for 18-19 come out.
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  #911  
Old 20-08-2019, 09:22 AM
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Yep, which is why we need the new stand as soon as possible!
But the new stand also increases our repayments for loans etc. Significantly! And it only increases revenue by 8,000 seats per game. We barely sold out for Everton too! That is around 300k per match extra revenue (every 2 weeks), IF we sell them. Or 150k each week if spread out over a home and away pattern. This is not the world really, when you factor in what the repayments would be on it.

On a player front, I don't think they care about the stadium! Or the manager either. We had pretty big names sign for us with Pardew in place! They care about their pay (which I know you will say is linked to stadium) and location (London). They might care a tiny bit about the training ground.
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  #912  
Old 20-08-2019, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Sir.S.C Remembered View Post
But the new stand also increases our repayments for loans etc. Significantly! And it only increases revenue by 8,000 seats per game. We barely sold out for Everton too! That is around 300k per match extra revenue (every 2 weeks), IF we sell them. Or 150k each week if spread out over a home and away pattern. This is not the world really, when you factor in what the repayments would be on it.

On a player front, I don't think they care about the stadium! Or the manager either. We had pretty big names sign for us with Pardew in place! They care about their pay (which I know you will say is linked to stadium) and location (London). They might care a tiny bit about the training ground.
It's not just extra capacity. It's also corporate hospitality, making Selhurst more attractive to hire on non match days. There are plenty of Palace fans staying away due to the cost, match day experience and limited restricted view seats left. This has been done to death already. Families have difficulty getting tickets together.
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  #913  
Old 21-08-2019, 08:25 AM
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Ok fair enough, but I'm still not convinced it will transform us financially.

My main criticisms of Parish (I'm v pro Parish) is slow progress on the ground and youth front. So I'm open to infrastructure projects, just am not convinced in the world of TV revenues
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Old 21-08-2019, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Wycombe Eagle#2 View Post
It's not just extra capacity. It's also corporate hospitality, making Selhurst more attractive to hire on non match days. There are plenty of Palace fans staying away due to the cost, match day experience and limited restricted view seats left. This has been done to death already. Families have difficulty getting tickets together.
My son doesn't have a ST this season due solely to their only being restricted view tickets available in the main stand family section.
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Old 21-08-2019, 09:00 AM
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But the new stand also increases our repayments for loans etc. Significantly! And it only increases revenue by 8,000 seats per game. We barely sold out for Everton too! That is around 300k per match extra revenue (every 2 weeks), IF we sell them. Or 150k each week if spread out over a home and away pattern. This is not the world really, when you factor in what the repayments would be on it.

On a player front, I don't think they care about the stadium! Or the manager either. We had pretty big names sign for us with Pardew in place! They care about their pay (which I know you will say is linked to stadium) and location (London). They might care a tiny bit about the training ground.
The way I look at it is the overall direction of the club is positive.

I think Parish has done a cracking job with the club, brand, quick uplift of the stadium, training ground and most of all hes kept us in the league earning the big bucks for 6 years.

Considering we had a very average squad coming up, numerous obstacles with managers leaving or not performing, weve managed to survive.

As for going to the next step, hes trying to get the ground upgraded and has invested well in the youth coaching set up.

My only fear is the ageing squad and our slightly short sighted transfer policy.

My guess is that after 4 years the yanks will want to exit or theyll have to cough up for the stand and look to refresh the squad.

All this moaning of Parish is wrong, considering hes not from a football background, almost every aspect of the club has improved.
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Old 21-08-2019, 09:22 AM
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I am not sure what you mean by not many sellable assets. Most of the first team is sellable, some for higher amounts than others. Zaha, Townsend, Luka, Meyer, Guiata, Shlupp, PvA and Sakho would all command a decent fee totally over 100m and then even the older and less established players could get something but much smaller.
This has been debated a number of times on other threads. I'm sure if we made it known that we were happy to sell there would have been some decent offers for some of these players.

Townsend is 28 and cost us 13m, which was his release clause at the time so he could probably have gone for more. Based on a 5 year contract he is currently valued at 5.2m in our books and I would argue that on a good day we would get all our money back i.e. the original 13m.
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Old 21-08-2019, 01:50 PM
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The reason we didnt spend money in this transfer window is because the americans want to ensure they have enough capital to clear any debt before they sell the club.

Someone close to the club told me that would be the case and based on the recent transfer window it looks like that might not be too far off.
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Old 21-08-2019, 03:11 PM
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The reason we didnt spend money in this transfer window is because the americans want to ensure they have enough capital to clear any debt before they sell the club.

Someone close to the club told me that would be the case and based on the recent transfer window it looks like that might not be too far off.
Interesting that the net debt stands at 34.9m , consisting of 52.7m of director/shareholder loans and funding agreements minus 17.9m cash in bank. 35-40m is probably what we cleared on AWB after agents fees etc etc.
Obviously if Harris & Blitzer sell those loans would have to be paid off first.

Also the transfer completed June 29th- conveniently scraping into the 2018/2019 financial year ending June 30th. Shame we didn't hold onto our original valuation of 60 million as Leicester did with their 80 million valuation of Maguire. Still, what's it matter about 10 million when we can show a nice profit for 2018/2019....
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Old 21-08-2019, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Obi Wan-Bissaka View Post
The reason we didnt spend money in this transfer window is because the americans want to ensure they have enough capital to clear any debt before they sell the club.

Someone close to the club told me that would be the case and based on the recent transfer window it looks like that might not be too far off.
But the debt would be factored into the purchase price so no need to clear any existing loans. When the Americans invested in the club the loans provided by CPFC 2010 were repaid.
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Last edited by dave_who_ru; 21-08-2019 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 21-08-2019, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Blue Eagle View Post
I see the money is found....

Pretty sure it would be in effect a long term loan to be paid back out of future profits once the stand is up and running but Dave would understand better.
Unfortunately this is all above my pay grade. I have looked at the various entities when the Americans made their investment in the club and some things follow through logically and other things don't.

We started with the club (CPFC Limited). the ground (CPFC Selhurst Park Limited) and the parent (CPFC 2010 Limited) incorporating the assets and liabilities of both.

Then we have Palace Midco UK Limited that was set up to enable the shareholdings to change hands. That has a fixed asset investment of 107,725,000 to acquire 100% of CPFC 2010 and it's subsidiaries. That was satisfied by the issue of 92,750,000 ordinary 1 shares fully paid up and a loan of 15m.

Then we have the ultimate parent company Palace Holdco UK Limited. In their accounts ended June 2016 is a breakdown of what the 107,725,000 'bought'. This is shown as fair value at date of acquisition (2 December 2015). The actual wording states 'This transaction has been accounted for using the acquisition method of accounting. The fair value of the assets and liabilities acquired are set out in the table below:

Intangible assets - 83,270,000
Tangible assets - 54,233,000
Stocks 812,000
Debtors - 16,276,000
Cash at bank and in hand - 2,648,000
Creditors - (43,314,000)
Provisions - (18,109,000)
Goodwill - 11,909,000

Where I can I have compared these numbers with those appearing in the end June 2016 accounts for CPFC 2010. There are two oddities. Intangible assets on Holdco for player registrations were 69,994,000 against 41,873,000 on CPFC 2010. They are back in line in 2017 and 2018 so no idea why there was a difference.

More interestingly and maybe a pointer that there is money there for the stand are the tangible assets. CPFC 2010 show a balance of 6,311,000 for Freehold Land and Buildings which we know is about right - ground c4m and training ground c2m. However this is recorded in Holdco's accounts as 47,152,000.

Is this the 50m of capital that the shareholders were putting in to develop the stadium?

Perhaps a real accountant can explain but I can't see how anyone could put a fair value of c47m on Selhurst Park and the training ground.
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Also Michael Hughes a f*****g 87 year old journeyman showed Garcia, Pongolle, Potter, Kewell and Cisse how to play in a wide position, he took the p**s out of us tonight. (LFC fansite)

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