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  #301  
Old 14-08-2019, 03:17 PM
dogstar721 dogstar721 is offline
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
It’s really isn’t at all black-and-white, and I have already posted one excellent example of a reason why it is not.

By the way, amazingly I find myself agreeing with nearly every word that Les has posted.
Having or not having sex with children, seems pretty black and white. Granted there are some hypothetical grey areas (like being lied to), but given that unless you had prior history, or in a position of authority (teacher etc) you did have to be 24 to face prosecution back in the 60s and 70s.

What you and Les keep arguing about are incidents in which it wasn't an offence (like a 17 year old and 15 year old) and mistaking what you may or may not have done, with something criminal. Or an honest mistake even (although thats probably harder to get away with, because the defence of the guilty will generally be 'I had no idea she was only 14').

Like having sex with someone whos drunk - Its not where you get drunk with someone and have sex. Its where you hang around night clubs find someone who is drunk and rape them (as they're too drunk to give informed consent).

Some exceptions probably do exist, but they're pretty rare and often hypothetical examples where people think in terms of an offence being defined by a binary consent (Yes / No) or age - rather than considering the actus and mens rae etc of the offence.

Problem with many of these hypotheticals that have been thrown up, is that they wouldn't likely have fallen into the characterisation of the laws anyhow - And this occurs because we've built a culture around masculinty and sexuality that is permissive towards sexual offences, because we scared that we might be sex offenders - because we're confusing unreasonable with reasonable - a necessity of criminality.
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  #302  
Old 14-08-2019, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
It’s really isn’t at all black-and-white, and I have already posted one excellent example of a reason why it is not.

By the way, amazingly I find myself agreeing with nearly every word that Les has posted.
I think thats mainly because I'm fighting with Justin Trudeau and Lily Allen who keep repeating the same crap
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  #303  
Old 14-08-2019, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Having or not having sex with children, seems pretty black and white.
I think it's easy to say that. But life is rarely black and white.

This is the case I cited earlier. To view the link you have to Register or Login


Be careful when you sneer at 'hypotheticals' : it's a fear of getting those wrong that led to the abandonment of the death penalty. Even one 'hypothetical' mistake is a vastly serious matter.
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  #304  
Old 14-08-2019, 03:24 PM
dogstar721 dogstar721 is offline
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Hmmm. The oldest advertisement in the world is said to be in Ephesus, and is a footprint that points the way to a brothel. It is by no means established that slaves were employed there.
Its very unlikely to be citizens. It might be owned by a citizen, but, for example, the Athenians, had a very strict and controlled view of women in society and the establishment of lines of inheritence.

Likely as not, the best ecconomic means of operating a brothel in classical times is to 'employ' slaves. Its incredibly unlikely that a citizen would be working as a prostitute in a brothel (almost unimaginable).
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  #305  
Old 14-08-2019, 03:30 PM
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Its very unlikely to be citizens..

I don't disagree. But it's highly likely that they were (free, but not citizens) foreigners, and children of local farmers (also free). Slaves unlikely in such a holy spot.
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  #306  
Old 14-08-2019, 03:31 PM
dogstar721 dogstar721 is offline
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
I think it's easy to say that. But life is rarely black and white.

This is the case I cited earlier. To view the link you have to Register or Login
You mean the case where the defence demonstrated it was reasonable for him to believe the girl was 16 or older using CCTV footage and images, thus demonstrating his actions were reasonable and he did not fulfill mens and actus rae necessary for a criminal conviction.

"At its heart is the fact that the girl in question looked over 16 - even the judge accepts that, having viewed CCTV footage. Police officers looking at night for under-age children in the streets of Edinburgh had no concerns about her age. Also, the girl engaged in sex willingly."

"Lady Scott said there there were a number of "relevant facts", which included that all witnesses had thought the victim was older than 16."

So whilst he should have stood trial (the girl was under 13 so thats classified as rape under law), he fits entirely within the definition of someone who is rightly cleared of charges.

Bet he asks in future.
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  #307  
Old 14-08-2019, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Bet he asks in future.
He asked this time as well.

At about 04:00, the girl and her friend met Cieslak and one of his friends in a taxi queue. The victim said she was 16 and her friend was 17



As I said, not black and white.


EDIT. By the way, I'm not so sure this is right either.
Quote:
You mean the case where the defence demonstrated it was reasonable for him to believe the girl was 16 or older using CCTV footage and images, thus demonstrating his actions were reasonable and he did not fulfill mens and actus rae necessary for a criminal conviction.
He had pleaded guilty, and in that sense was convicted. The Absolute Discharge however means that he wass not punished for the cited reasons. And thus no doubt will not need to go on the Offenders Register as would be the norm.
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  #308  
Old 14-08-2019, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
You mean the case where the defence demonstrated it was reasonable for him to believe the girl was 16 or older using CCTV footage and images, thus demonstrating his actions were reasonable and he did not fulfill mens and actus rae necessary for a criminal conviction.

"At its heart is the fact that the girl in question looked over 16 - even the judge accepts that, having viewed CCTV footage. Police officers looking at night for under-age children in the streets of Edinburgh had no concerns about her age. Also, the girl engaged in sex willingly."

"Lady Scott said there there were a number of "relevant facts", which included that all witnesses had thought the victim was older than 16."

So whilst he should have stood trial (the girl was under 13 so thats classified as rape under law), he fits entirely within the definition of someone who is rightly cleared of charges.

Bet he asks in future.
And these are the cases that happen and I am talking about and glad the judge had the balls to see the truth of the matter rather than the pitchforks and stoning.

Glad you agree and I bet a lot of others will ask even at the risk of upsetting someone who is not underage.

Wonder how that will work out mind if you ask a woman in your chat up lines if she is underage in a adult night club at two in the morning....?
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  #309  
Old 14-08-2019, 03:48 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by sw16girl View Post
Very unlikely - I know you want it to be the case but do read the article carefully. It does point out it is official travel that is paid for by the queen out of the Sovereign grant and not anything else. On the occasion they highlight it is the cost of that travel and the choice of expensive travel that is being complained about. The trips themselves were all on what is clearly official business.

Non official travel - he pays for himself so I would doubt the taxpayer paid for trips to Epstein unless it was official business which I cannot see anyone has ever claimed.
Fair another but nonetheless the point remains that this is a prominent royal who does get significant amounts of taxpayers money and now it turns out according to your link does dodgy deals with dictators.

He should be removed from any duties and her zero money.
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  #310  
Old 14-08-2019, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Wolfnipplechips View Post
Meh, the very idea that the Queen’s son is not funded by the state either directly or indirectly is laughable.
Indeed.
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  #311  
Old 14-08-2019, 03:55 PM
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Again struggling to see why the focus here isn’t the millions who get away with rather than 2am in a club or exceptional cases.
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  #312  
Old 14-08-2019, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Fair another but nonetheless the point remains that this is a prominent royal who does get significant amounts of taxpayers money and now it turns out according to your link does dodgy deals with dictators.

He should be removed from any duties and her zero money.
That is another debate entirely and I'm inclined to agree with you on that but sadly the fact that people still fawn over someone as tainted as andrew just because he is a royal is a pretty sad indictment anyway.
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  #313  
Old 14-08-2019, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
I suspect that it wasn't a profession really until fairly late on (You need the invention of money really, some female autonomy and the decline in slavery for the most part). It doesn't seem to be a profession so much in Ancient Greece, more something of an occupation slaves might be put to - but some degree of prostitution involves some autonomy.

In eras of Slavery I'd imagine that prostitute was something more you were bought to do, rather than paid to do.
Sadly slavery has not gone away.
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  #314  
Old 14-08-2019, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by sw16girl View Post
That is another debate entirely and I'm inclined to agree with you on that but sadly the fact that people still fawn over someone as tainted as andrew just because he is a royal is a pretty sad indictment anyway.
Isn't he some kind of trade envoy who travels the world at taxpayer expense to 'promote British businesses'?
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  #315  
Old 14-08-2019, 04:30 PM
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Someone has to go to Riyadh. Rather him than me.
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  #316  
Old 14-08-2019, 04:44 PM
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If I've learnt anything from the film Taken, I'm sure that he is well looked after by Saudi royalty.
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  #317  
Old 14-08-2019, 04:48 PM
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If I've learnt anything from the film Taken, I'm sure that he is well looked after by Saudi royalty.
He's certainly got a specific set of skills by the sounds of it.
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  #318  
Old 14-08-2019, 05:28 PM
dogstar721 dogstar721 is offline
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Again struggling to see why the focus here isn’t the millions who get away with rather than 2am in a club or exceptional cases.
Yep
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  #319  
Old 14-08-2019, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Again struggling to see why the focus here isn’t the millions who get away with rather than 2am in a club or exceptional cases.
Because it's hard to focus on millions of people?
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  #320  
Old 14-08-2019, 06:15 PM
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Because it's hard to focus on millions of people?
With people like Epstein we are talking about vile predators and it seems he has a huge network of people involved in that, including very powerful people.

But then we somehow end up talking about meeting a woman in a club at 2am. Or very exceptional cases.

Men who go with children and/or assault and rape women know exactly what they are doing and that it’s wrong. That includes the 60s and 70s. A grown man well in to his 20s knows it is ****ed up and indeed criminal in many cases to go with 15 and 16 year old children.

I used to go clubbing loads in my 20s and early 30s and surprisingly enough managed to meet women who weren’t teenagers.
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