Home | Forums | Gallery | Twitter
 
CPFC BBS  

Go Back   CPFC BBS » Off Topic » The Politics Forum

Notices

The Politics Forum Discussions that are wholly or mainly concerned with UK politics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #321  
Old 22-06-2019, 06:57 AM
redandblue's Avatar
redandblue redandblue is offline
Chubby Chops balls drop
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Deepest Darkest Kent
Age: 49
Posts: 11,496
Rep Power: 21474855
redandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickP View Post
Intel suggests a real and rising threat of terrorism from extreme right wing nationalists.

No such intelligence exists about climate change activists as far as I know. But no doubt there are undercover policemen getting them pregnant and trying to egg them on to do something nasty.
Are your working for MI5 ?
__________________
"And then when it was all over, a thousand Palace fans stayed on to applaud their side's warm-down and the strains of Glad All Over crashed out across Selhurst. Daft little tune .......brave little team"

Sunday Mail 7/11/2004 after 1-1 with Arsenal
Reply With Quote
  #322  
Old 22-06-2019, 06:59 AM
redandblue's Avatar
redandblue redandblue is offline
Chubby Chops balls drop
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Deepest Darkest Kent
Age: 49
Posts: 11,496
Rep Power: 21474855
redandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is here
Let’s we what the police or CPS do regarding this use of reasonable force. Surely you realise that with this much coverage and clear and open evidence if they think there is a case to answer to he will be prosecuted, if this happens I will be happy to accept I am wrong. If he is not prosecuted and found guilty would you be prepared to do the same ?

Thought not...
__________________
"And then when it was all over, a thousand Palace fans stayed on to applaud their side's warm-down and the strains of Glad All Over crashed out across Selhurst. Daft little tune .......brave little team"

Sunday Mail 7/11/2004 after 1-1 with Arsenal
Reply With Quote
  #323  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:02 AM
SE25 exile's Avatar
SE25 exile SE25 exile is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: on a small island with too many small minds.
Posts: 21,782
Rep Power: 21474856
SE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by redandblue View Post
Let’s we what the police or CPS do regarding this use of reasonable force. Surely you realise that with this much coverage and clear and open evidence if they think there is a case to answer to he will be prosecuted, if this happens I will be happy to accept I am wrong. If he is not prosecuted and found guilty would you be prepared to do the same ?

Thought not...
The woman has already said that she is not going to press any assault charges, and Field is a very lucky guy.
__________________
WE ARE NOW A ONE TORY NATION - JOHNSON AN OVEN READY DICTATOR
Reply With Quote
  #324  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:03 AM
NickP NickP is offline
Champagne Socialist
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Woodmansterne
Age: 60
Posts: 2,814
Rep Power: 21474840
NickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by redandblue View Post
Are your working for MI5 ?
Can't answer that*











(* actually I know nothing much about intelligence services except what you get in the books and films)
Reply With Quote
  #325  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:05 AM
redandblue's Avatar
redandblue redandblue is offline
Chubby Chops balls drop
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Deepest Darkest Kent
Age: 49
Posts: 11,496
Rep Power: 21474855
redandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickP View Post
No, I disagree. They walked into a public building and went into the dinner hall.

Yes, they weren't invited, but I don't agree that that means they can't go along and protest.

My argument is no more childish than yours, and calling mine childish doesn't make yours any more defensible.
At what event should people not be able to walk in to a private function in a public building ? Should people be Abel to wander in without tickets and protest st the cup final ? What about a political party conference ? Would it be ok for a load of religious nuts to gate crash a dinner of surgeons that perform abortions ?

I don’t believe that protesters of any sort should be allowed in a private event to protest outside yes inside no.

By not being able to draw the line at what events are ok to protest at and what are not is demonstrating that your position can not be supported.
__________________
"And then when it was all over, a thousand Palace fans stayed on to applaud their side's warm-down and the strains of Glad All Over crashed out across Selhurst. Daft little tune .......brave little team"

Sunday Mail 7/11/2004 after 1-1 with Arsenal
Reply With Quote
  #326  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:06 AM
Les Butler's Avatar
Les Butler Les Butler is offline
Ex Waddon bloke
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Montréal Canada
Age: 61
Posts: 47,657
Rep Power: 21474857
Les Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickP View Post
Can't answer that*











(* actually I know nothing much about intelligence
.
__________________
Time and time again you put yourself above others and pass judgement as if you are the font of wisdom wearing a crown of neutrality and possessing the human insight of Buddha.
Reply With Quote
  #327  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:07 AM
NickP NickP is offline
Champagne Socialist
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Woodmansterne
Age: 60
Posts: 2,814
Rep Power: 21474840
NickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by redandblue View Post
Let’s we what the police or CPS do regarding this use of reasonable force. Surely you realise that with this much coverage and clear and open evidence if they think there is a case to answer to he will be prosecuted, if this happens I will be happy to accept I am wrong. If he is not prosecuted and found guilty would you be prepared to do the same ?

Thought not...
He's unlikely to be prosecuted. But he's been suspended pending an investigation. So it can't be as cut and dried as you imply that he acted perfectly reasonably.

And not being prosecuted is hardly evidence of innocence of anything, is it? Even being acquitted isn't that!
Reply With Quote
  #328  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:09 AM
Away's Avatar
Away Away is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,695
Rep Power: 14327516
Away came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietAway came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietAway came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietAway came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietAway came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietAway came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietAway came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietAway came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietAway came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietAway came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietAway came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
Perhaps his first reaction should have been to just block her path? Like the other people were doing it the other protesters?





Look at his face, he's furious.

When I heard the description of what happened I figured the ‘have a go hero’ narrative was very plausible. When I saw the video I thought it looked much more like irritation that had built up and then he momentarily lost it. A sort of road rage incident where one party fantasises that a bit of heroic force will put the other person in their place only to find they’ve overstepped their normal standards of behaviour.

Black tie vs red dress just makes it look like toff domestic violence which is unfortunate for Field.
Reply With Quote
  #329  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:09 AM
redandblue's Avatar
redandblue redandblue is offline
Chubby Chops balls drop
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Deepest Darkest Kent
Age: 49
Posts: 11,496
Rep Power: 21474855
redandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
The woman has already said that she is not going to press any assault charges, and Field is a very lucky guy.
What does this mean ?

Are you aware that in the UK a citizen can not choose whether to “press” or “not press” charges ? This is a decision made by the police and the CPS and never a victim.

So if it is considered that Mark Field committed and offence and there is a good chance of conviction then he will be arrested and charged by the police and prosecuted by the CPS.

If this happens and he is found guilty I will accept my judgement is wrong, if he is not found guilty will you ?
__________________
"And then when it was all over, a thousand Palace fans stayed on to applaud their side's warm-down and the strains of Glad All Over crashed out across Selhurst. Daft little tune .......brave little team"

Sunday Mail 7/11/2004 after 1-1 with Arsenal
Reply With Quote
  #330  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:12 AM
SE25 exile's Avatar
SE25 exile SE25 exile is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: on a small island with too many small minds.
Posts: 21,782
Rep Power: 21474856
SE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by redandblue View Post
At what event should people not be able to walk in to a private function in a public building ? Should people be Abel to wander in without tickets and protest st the cup final ? What about a political party conference ? Would it be ok for a load of religious nuts to gate crash a dinner of surgeons that perform abortions ?

I don’t believe that protesters of any sort should be allowed in a private event to protest outside yes inside no.

By not being able to draw the line at what events are ok to protest at and what are not is demonstrating that your position can not be supported.
I don't think present and future protesters care a jot about what you or others think is right or legal or not. Its called protest, and again is a tradition that completely passes over your head. People get upset, that is the whole point, and is why today you don't have to pay the poll tax, and why women can walk into a polling booth and choose who represents them in parliament.
__________________
WE ARE NOW A ONE TORY NATION - JOHNSON AN OVEN READY DICTATOR
Reply With Quote
  #331  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:12 AM
redandblue's Avatar
redandblue redandblue is offline
Chubby Chops balls drop
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Deepest Darkest Kent
Age: 49
Posts: 11,496
Rep Power: 21474855
redandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickP View Post
He's unlikely to be prosecuted. But he's been suspended pending an investigation. So it can't be as cut and dried as you imply that he acted perfectly reasonably.

And not being prosecuted is hardly evidence of innocence of anything, is it? Even being acquitted isn't that!
I agree in most cases not being prosecuted is not proof on innocence but being acquitted is or you have to at least accept it as such if you believe in our society.


In this instance thought I disagree completely, the police and CPS will have gone through this video hundreds of times if they think there that a crime has been committed with this high profile they would be jumping up and down to prosecute.
__________________
"And then when it was all over, a thousand Palace fans stayed on to applaud their side's warm-down and the strains of Glad All Over crashed out across Selhurst. Daft little tune .......brave little team"

Sunday Mail 7/11/2004 after 1-1 with Arsenal
Reply With Quote
  #332  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:13 AM
NickP NickP is offline
Champagne Socialist
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Woodmansterne
Age: 60
Posts: 2,814
Rep Power: 21474840
NickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by redandblue View Post
At what event should people not be able to walk in to a private function in a public building ? Should people be Abel to wander in without tickets and protest st the cup final ? What about a political party conference ? Would it be ok for a load of religious nuts to gate crash a dinner of surgeons that perform abortions ?

I don’t believe that protesters of any sort should be allowed in a private event to protest outside yes inside no.

By not being able to draw the line at what events are ok to protest at and what are not is demonstrating that your position can not be supported.
Most of your first paragraph is absurd rhetoric. "Should protesters be allowed into your mother's bathroom while she's taking a shower?"

I don’t believe that protesters of any sort should be allowed in a private event to protest outside yes inside no. This is the hard kernel of your argument, and is fair enough as a point of view.

Don't agree myself - I think protesters shouldn't inflict violence to force their way in, but that didn't happen, as far as I know.

This was a a speech of the chancellor about public spending - hardly a private matter. And just who IS invited to these swanky dinners, anyway?
Reply With Quote
  #333  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:15 AM
NickP NickP is offline
Champagne Socialist
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Woodmansterne
Age: 60
Posts: 2,814
Rep Power: 21474840
NickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by redandblue View Post
I agree in most cases not being prosecuted is not proof on innocence but being acquitted is or you have to at least accept it as such if you believe in our society.

.
Well here's something we can agree upon, at least nearly enough for harmony.
Reply With Quote
  #334  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:16 AM
redandblue's Avatar
redandblue redandblue is offline
Chubby Chops balls drop
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Deepest Darkest Kent
Age: 49
Posts: 11,496
Rep Power: 21474855
redandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
I don't think present and future protesters care a jot about what you or others think is right or legal or not. Its called protest, and again is a tradition that completely passes over your head. People get upset, that is the whole point, and is why today you don't have to pay the poll tax, and why women can walk into a polling booth and choose who represents them in parliament.
What the protesters think or don’t is acceptable does not mean that it either is or is not but what it does mean is that if they act illegally then they have to face consequences.

It may well be that they think it acceptable to disrupt a function it may be that the people in the function think it acceptable to beat 7 bells out of them both of them have their views neither of them is right under law.


Just for a point of clarity I don’t think mark field beat seven bells out of her
__________________
"And then when it was all over, a thousand Palace fans stayed on to applaud their side's warm-down and the strains of Glad All Over crashed out across Selhurst. Daft little tune .......brave little team"

Sunday Mail 7/11/2004 after 1-1 with Arsenal
Reply With Quote
  #335  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:21 AM
NickP NickP is offline
Champagne Socialist
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Woodmansterne
Age: 60
Posts: 2,814
Rep Power: 21474840
NickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by redandblue View Post
What the protesters think or don’t is acceptable does not mean that it either is or is not but what it does mean is that if they act illegally then they have to face consequences.

It may well be that they think it acceptable to disrupt a function it may be that the people in the function think it acceptable to beat 7 bells out of them both of them have their views neither of them is right under law.


Just for a point of clarity I don’t think mark field beat seven bells out of her
So do you agree that if the CPS decide not to prosecute her that she must have been acting legally? To use your own argument.
Reply With Quote
  #336  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:21 AM
SE25 exile's Avatar
SE25 exile SE25 exile is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: on a small island with too many small minds.
Posts: 21,782
Rep Power: 21474856
SE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by redandblue View Post
What does this mean ?

Are you aware that in the UK a citizen can not choose whether to “press” or “not press” charges ? This is a decision made by the police and the CPS and never a victim.

So if it is considered that Mark Field committed and offence and there is a good chance of conviction then he will be arrested and charged by the police and prosecuted by the CPS.

If this happens and he is found guilty I will accept my judgement is wrong, if he is not found guilty will you ?
Highly unlikely that the CPS will change her gracious attitude.

Here are the guidelines from the government:

"Charging Practice for Public Justice Offences

The following factors will be relevant to all public justice offences when assessing the relative seriousness of the conduct and which offence, when there is an option, should be charged. Consider whether the conduct:

was spontaneous and unplanned or deliberate and elaborately planned;
was momentary and irresolute or prolonged and determined;

was motivated by misplaced loyalty to a relative/friend or was part of a concerted effort to avoid, pervert, or defeat justice;
whether the activities of the defendant drew in others;
was intended to result in trivial or 'serious harm' to the administration of justice;
actually resulted in trivial or 'serious harm' to the administration of justice."

The two top considerations match Field's actions accurately, hence in conjunction with no victim pressing charges, his only concern will be his personal future and job, and that is in the hands of Theresa May.
__________________
WE ARE NOW A ONE TORY NATION - JOHNSON AN OVEN READY DICTATOR
Reply With Quote
  #337  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:22 AM
NickP NickP is offline
Champagne Socialist
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Woodmansterne
Age: 60
Posts: 2,814
Rep Power: 21474840
NickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is hereNickP Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Away View Post
When I heard the description of what happened I figured the ‘have a go hero’ narrative was very plausible. When I saw the video I thought it looked much more like irritation that had built up and then he momentarily lost it. A sort of road rage incident where one party fantasises that a bit of heroic force will put the other person in their place only to find they’ve overstepped their normal standards of behaviour.

Black tie vs red dress just makes it look like toff domestic violence which is unfortunate for Field.
Might have had a glass or two over his normal tipple?
Reply With Quote
  #338  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:24 AM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Lewisham
Posts: 15,123
Rep Power: 21474852
cockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by spt1978 View Post
Your hangover will be immense.
Reply With Quote
  #339  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:25 AM
SE25 exile's Avatar
SE25 exile SE25 exile is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: on a small island with too many small minds.
Posts: 21,782
Rep Power: 21474856
SE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by redandblue View Post
What the protesters think or don’t is acceptable does not mean that it either is or is not but what it does mean is that if they act illegally then they have to face consequences.

It may well be that they think it acceptable to disrupt a function it may be that the people in the function think it acceptable to beat 7 bells out of them both of them have their views neither of them is right under law.


Just for a point of clarity I don’t think mark field beat seven bells out of her
You really don't get protest do you?

Of course protesters are aware that they may face prosecution. As I said, if you read up on the history of the Suffragettes, you will already know that arrest, charges and prosecution are part of what they often seek. It is never something they avoid and more often than not, expect. Frankly, I am done with this, if you haven't got it by now.
__________________
WE ARE NOW A ONE TORY NATION - JOHNSON AN OVEN READY DICTATOR
Reply With Quote
  #340  
Old 22-06-2019, 07:27 AM
redandblue's Avatar
redandblue redandblue is offline
Chubby Chops balls drop
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Deepest Darkest Kent
Age: 49
Posts: 11,496
Rep Power: 21474855
redandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is hereredandblue Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickP View Post
So do you agree that if the CPS decide not to prosecute her that she must have been acting legally? To use your own argument.
Trespass on property is not s criminal offence therefore the CPS can’t prosecute her for it even if they wanted to and as far as I am aware this was her only breach of law.
__________________
"And then when it was all over, a thousand Palace fans stayed on to applaud their side's warm-down and the strains of Glad All Over crashed out across Selhurst. Daft little tune .......brave little team"

Sunday Mail 7/11/2004 after 1-1 with Arsenal
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.