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  #11961  
Old 18-01-2022, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfnipplechips View Post
This could be the one…

“I know who sent the email to Martin Reynolds on 20 May 2020 telling him the planned 'bring your own booze' party should not go ahead, though the sender tells me he does not want to be seen as agent provocateur against the Prime Minister and has asked me not to name him.

Before I go on, I regard the evidence of this 'senior official' – as styled by Dominic Cummings in his blog yesterday – as compelling, because if it turns out he is lying he knows it will come out and he would be seriously damaged. The email was copied to an official in Reynolds’s office and to the PM’s then main aide – now estranged – Dominic Cummings.

Sue Gray, who is investigating that party and others, can easily find the email, since there will not be so many received by Reynolds and Cummings on 20 May.

She has also told the sender of the dynamite email she would like to speak with him but has not yet. When she does, he will both point her to the email and he will tell her that Reynolds immediately came to his office after receipt of the email and asked him why the party should be cancelled.

Reynolds was told by the email sender – 'in the nicest possible way' – that the party was a kind sentiment but it should be cancelled because it broke the rules. Reynolds allegedly said he feared it could be more embarrassing to cancel. The official cannot remember whether he also told the PM the party should be cancelled.

'I probably did but I honestly can’t remember,' he told me. Cummings, however, says in his blog he personally told the PM the party was a mistake and he is also confident that Reynolds would have had a conversation with the PM and would have passed on the concerns of colleagues about the planned party.

All this is the essential evidence that will help Gray decide whether Reynolds and Boris Johnson knowingly broke the lockdown rules on 20 May, and whether the Prime Minister has also committed the cardinal political sin of misleading parliament.”

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Still - just - possible for the PM to claim no-one told him, based on that. The official can't remember if he did, and a 'his word against mine' with Dom is hardly a slam dunk as they are both liars.
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  #11962  
Old 18-01-2022, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by stevek View Post
Yes, I wasn't disagreeing with you - I agree on timings if you did have a second chamber.
The challenge of a checks and balances is when the art of compromise gets thrown out of the window and they simply become a complete block and you end up with an ability to get very little done.
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  #11963  
Old 18-01-2022, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
Though in my defence, there have been a fair few comments on the BBS from people wanting Johnson to stay in power longer so to do more damage to the Tories, so it's not a great leap to think the same argument might prevail in the Labour party.
Whilst my humour is no doubt a bit scurrilous, what choice is there for Labour supporters with the Tories still with 2 yrs yet to run with a large majority?

If BJ leaves in disgrace (which he deserves to) we are left with a leadership contest including the likes of Raab, Truss, Patel, Sunak ffs! - ...one doesn't know where their arse (Calais) is, another thinks importing cheese is a disgrace, one has become the Minister for overseeing migrant deaths and was planning to use sonic weapons on dinghys, and the last one is a billionaire, rabid brexiteer who leaves us with the highest debt burden and taxes in 50 yrs. Who the f*ck would want any of these?

The choice isn't after all up to Labour, but somehow they are now being blamed for this shitshow (of keeping BJ in power) which is almost as ridiculous as the DM asking Keir Starmer for an apology for the hurt he caused for having a Peroni with his sandwich between work meetings in a constituency office. Spare us the faux outrage and pretence of wanting what's best for the country please

Over the next 2 yrs when Labour is powerless in Parliament cos of Tory voters who didn't like Corbyns commie hat (although they can't name a single far left wing policy in his manifesto) why wouldn't they want to see BJ bring down the whole far right of the Tory party or atleast to expose them as the incompetent, racist, corrupt, hypocritical liars they are - only then will the best interests of this country be served and hopefully this sorry period in our history will never be repeated
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  #11964  
Old 18-01-2022, 09:34 AM
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The same party is in majority in both houses!
If you wanted an elected house I think you’d have to find a way to entirely exclude the party machinery from elections to the upper house.
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  #11965  
Old 18-01-2022, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
The same party is in majority in both houses!
If you wanted an elected house I think you’d have to find a way to entirely exclude the party machinery from elections to the upper house.
The Tories do not have a majority in the Lords.
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  #11966  
Old 18-01-2022, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
The Tories do not have a majority in the Lords.
Oh! Good, then.
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  #11967  
Old 18-01-2022, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by olly cromwell View Post
I actually agree 100% with this, if these peers are that good then they should have no problems with standing for election every 4 years
Have you seen the people we get when we elect them?
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  #11968  
Old 18-01-2022, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ExiledStirling View Post
It does make you think that unelected is not as bad for democracy as it might appear. Being elected does seem to carry with it a need to follow a certain political agenda. Not what the HoL should be about to providing the sound checks and balances we need from it.
Prior to this the last thing I can remember them standing up to the government on was caps on child benefit.

It seems like they are working well, in spite of many of the hard lefts or Nigel F's desire to get rid of it.
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  #11969  
Old 18-01-2022, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfnipplechips View Post
This could be the one…

“I know who sent the email to Martin Reynolds on 20 May 2020 telling him the planned 'bring your own booze' party should not go ahead, though the sender tells me he does not want to be seen as agent provocateur against the Prime Minister and has asked me not to name him.

Before I go on, I regard the evidence of this 'senior official' – as styled by Dominic Cummings in his blog yesterday – as compelling, because if it turns out he is lying he knows it will come out and he would be seriously damaged. The email was copied to an official in Reynolds’s office and to the PM’s then main aide – now estranged – Dominic Cummings.

Sue Gray, who is investigating that party and others, can easily find the email, since there will not be so many received by Reynolds and Cummings on 20 May.

She has also told the sender of the dynamite email she would like to speak with him but has not yet. When she does, he will both point her to the email and he will tell her that Reynolds immediately came to his office after receipt of the email and asked him why the party should be cancelled.

Reynolds was told by the email sender – 'in the nicest possible way' – that the party was a kind sentiment but it should be cancelled because it broke the rules. Reynolds allegedly said he feared it could be more embarrassing to cancel. The official cannot remember whether he also told the PM the party should be cancelled.

'I probably did but I honestly can’t remember,' he told me. Cummings, however, says in his blog he personally told the PM the party was a mistake and he is also confident that Reynolds would have had a conversation with the PM and would have passed on the concerns of colleagues about the planned party.

All this is the essential evidence that will help Gray decide whether Reynolds and Boris Johnson knowingly broke the lockdown rules on 20 May, and whether the Prime Minister has also committed the cardinal political sin of misleading parliament.”

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There once was a shepherd boy who was bored as he sat on the hillside watching the village sheep. To amuse himself he took a great breath and sang out, "Wolf! Wolf! The Wolf is chasing the sheep!"

The villagers came running up the hill to help the boy drive the wolf away. But when they arrived at the top of the hill, they found no wolf. The boy laughed at the sight of their angry faces.

"Don't cry 'wolf', shepherd boy," said the villagers, "when there's no wolf!" They went grumbling back down the hill.

Later, the boy sang out again, "Wolf! Wolf! The wolf is chasing the sheep!" To his naughty delight, he watched the villagers run up the hill to help him drive the wolf away.

When the villagers saw no wolf they sternly said, "Save your frightened song for when there is really something wrong! Don't cry 'wolf' when there is NO wolf!"

But the boy just grinned and watched them go grumbling down the hill once more.

Later, he saw a REAL wolf prowling about his flock. Alarmed, he leaped to his feet and sang out as loudly as he could, "Wolf! Wolf!"

But the villagers thought he was trying to fool them again, and so they didn't come.

At sunset, everyone wondered why the shepherd boy hadn't returned to the village with their sheep. They went up the hill to find the boy. They found him weeping.

"There really was a wolf here! The flock has scattered! I cried out, "Wolf!" Why didn't you come?"

An old man tried to comfort the boy as they walked back to the village.

"We'll help you look for the lost sheep in the morning," he said, putting his arm around the youth, "Nobody believes a liar...even when he is telling the truth!"
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  #11970  
Old 18-01-2022, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by stevek View Post
Have you seen the people we get when we elect them?
I'm not sure all the individual members of the Lords would bear the closest of scrutiny.
Do we have numbers of how many got there by donations to parties?
And I know a few hereditary members - wouldn't trust any of them to run a bath.
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  #11971  
Old 18-01-2022, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe85 View Post
It’s all well and good while they’re making decisions people find favourable. There should be no jobs for life in democracy and none that are inherited, either.

Absolutely no reason why the HoL can’t be an elected chamber.
Only problem with that is that it would probably be a carbon copy of the main house? Unless some sort of american system i guess. I personally think it should go but one bizarre benefit is that they can vote against the government without fear of being voted off. Not sure if this is the case with this bill.
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  #11972  
Old 18-01-2022, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnybegood View Post
Whilst my humour is no doubt a bit scurrilous, what choice is there for Labour supporters with the Tories still with 2 yrs yet to run with a large majority?

If BJ leaves in disgrace (which he deserves to) we are left with a leadership contest including the likes of Raab, Truss, Patel, Sunak ffs! - ...one doesn't know where their arse (Calais) is, another thinks importing cheese is a disgrace, one has become the Minister for overseeing migrant deaths and was planning to use sonic weapons on dinghys, and the last one is a billionaire, rabid brexiteer who leaves us with the highest debt burden and taxes in 50 yrs. Who the f*ck would want any of these?

The choice isn't after all up to Labour, but somehow they are now being blamed for this shitshow (of keeping BJ in power) which is almost as ridiculous as the DM asking Keir Starmer for an apology for the hurt he caused for having a Peroni with his sandwich between work meetings in a constituency office. Spare us the faux outrage and pretence of wanting what's best for the country please

Over the next 2 yrs when Labour is powerless in Parliament cos of Tory voters who didn't like Corbyns commie hat (although they can't name a single far left wing policy in his manifesto) why wouldn't they want to see BJ bring down the whole far right of the Tory party or atleast to expose them as the incompetent, racist, corrupt, hypocritical liars they are - only then will the best interests of this country be served and hopefully this sorry period in our history will never be repeated
I do admire your ability to make rational, compelling, observations and points.
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  #11973  
Old 18-01-2022, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
I'm not sure all the individual members of the Lords would bear the closest of scrutiny.
Do we have numbers of how many got there by donations to parties?
And I know a few hereditary members - wouldn't trust any of them to run a bath.
If a 2nd chamber is there to provide a check on power and bad legislation, and also to provide expertise I dont see ths point in it being staffed by election or government appointment.

My strongly held view is a 2nd chamber should be made up of 50% experts, appointed by their respective professional and union bodies, i.e. doctors, manufacturers, education, science, union, IT, etc and 50% selected by lot, as we do with juries.

Ths would give it true independence without bias
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Last edited by adrenalin john; 18-01-2022 at 10:57 AM.
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  #11974  
Old 18-01-2022, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
I do admire your ability to make rational, compelling, observations and points.
Says the man who voted for Brexit and Johnson...
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  #11975  
Old 18-01-2022, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
I do admire your ability to make rational, compelling, observations and points.
Why thank you kind sir, although I am aware my sarcasm, cynicism, dad joke humour and confrontational style can also offend unintentionally
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  #11976  
Old 18-01-2022, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olly cromwell View Post
I actually agree 100% with this, if these peers are that good then they should have no problems with standing for election every 4 years
Would the Tory party donors get a refund?
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  #11977  
Old 18-01-2022, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
If a 2nd chamber is there to provide a check on power and bad legislation, and also to provide expertise I dont see ths point in it being staffed by election or government appointment.

My strongly held view is a 2nd chamber should be made up of 50% experts, appointed by their respective professional and union bodies, i.e. doctors, manufacturers, education, science, union, IT, etc and 50% selected by lot, as we do with juries.

Ths would give it true independence without bias
That's more or less my angle, but you'd have to sort out remuneration and career continuity.
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  #11978  
Old 18-01-2022, 11:10 AM
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And move it to Birmingham or somewhere like that.
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  #11979  
Old 18-01-2022, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
That's more or less my angle, but you'd have to sort out remuneration and career continuity.
But hardly an impossibility for 200 citizens out of 60 million. They could be paid well and their employers compensated for keeping their job open.

It should be a role that if you are a professional you are appointed to with pride and if selected by lot as a citizen with joy and a feeling of good fortune.
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Old 18-01-2022, 11:12 AM
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And move it to Birmingham or somewhere like that.
It is not meant to be a punishment, but assuming London is independent of the UK I would have no objection.
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