27 people confirmed to have died after boat sinks in the channel

[Hpalace]

Originally Posted by in-exile

Children are dying ..... something needs to be done by governments for these people and to stop the need to cross this dangerous channel.

There are two realistic options.

1: Provide safe passage and then extradite failed asylum seekers
2: Process them in Calais.

Permanently preventing all from coming here or shipping them straight back will never be a proper solution. It will also encourage the current situation to change. Mostly on arrival the asylum seekers hang around and wait for the border force to get to them and process them thus begin their asylum claim. Ship them straight back and this will change. They will run on arrival and a decent proportion will end up exploited in the black economy and sex trades etc.

[weltklasse]

Originally Posted by stevek

Do you think Johnson and co will ever learn that the point about diplomacy is to be, well, diplomatic - and not to slag off other countries publicly the whole time.

I am rather doubtful, its sad that some posters on here think blaming the french for everything is a way forward.

[cantspell]

Originally Posted by Hpalace

Perhaps but I think our demands were quite ridiculous.

1: Our police to patrol France's border is insulting to a nation the size of France
2: All asylum seekers to be returned straight to France is basically saying the UK will no longer take asylum seekers from France and they are now all permanently France's problem.
3: Sharing of data - we have just left the eu. Have we forgotten we have just left the EU?

Entering a negotiation with not just unreasonable demands but frankly insulting demands; is a terrible way to start a negotiation.

I'd be pissed off if I were in the French government and got the first two of those demands.

[weltklasse]

Originally Posted by cantspell

I'd be pissed off if I were in the French government and got the first two of those demands.

Some posters type shit like this...

"Not like the French to be pedantic, belligerent and childish."

No reflection the poster could apply all three epithets to themselves and make a reasonable point.

[Worksop Palace]

Originally Posted by weltklasse

Some posters type shit like this...

"Not like the French to be pedantic, belligerent and childish."

No reflection the poster could apply all three epithets to themselves and make a reasonable point.

A great addition to the debate from you as usual.

Bravo

[Worksop Palace]

Originally Posted by Adlerhorst

Most of the people here are U.K. citizens, not French citizens. Ergo we have more interest in the actions of our government rather than the French. Yes Macron has an election and Macron has form for using British bashing in his election strategy, and it is perfectly possible that the decision to pull out linked to that. But our elected PM sent a letter to Macron with some unnecessary dickish comments that allowed Macron to make that decision. It’s our elected PM who I am more angry at because I’m a British citizen and he’s supposed to do stuff in the best interests of the U.K. and he hasn’t.

That doesn’t mean you can’t criticise the French does it? I’ve already made a point of criticising both sides in this sorry tale.

It seems if you criticise the French it means to some on here that you’re laying all the blame at their door.

Agenda driven myopic nonsense, of course.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by weltklasse

Some posters type shit like this...

"Not like the French to be pedantic, belligerent and childish."

No reflection the poster could apply all three epithets to themselves and make a reasonable point.

I wonder who you were talking about? I am assuming that the two posts that follow the above are full of puerile Sloppy indignation.

[CT_Palace]

Originally Posted by Worksop Palace

That doesn’t mean you can’t criticise the French does it? I’ve already made a point of criticising both sides in this sorry tale.

It seems if you criticise the French it means to some on here that you’re laying all the blame at their door.

Agenda driven myopic nonsense, of course.

Of course you can criticise the French. Anyone can. Just be more selective about it. Your post looked to shift criticism onto the French. The letter was sent in full public view from Boris to the French, not the other way round. It’s a bit rich to criticise the French reaction to the letter in this case.

[ovingdean agent]

I see the usual suspects have hijacked another thread to promote their twisted view on life and shout down anybody who might have the temerity not to live in a 1970's Citizen Smith world.

[Max_Power]

Originally Posted by ovingdean agent

I see the usual suspects have hijacked another thread to promote their twisted view on life and shout down anybody who might have the temerity not to live in a 1970's Citizen Smith world.

Not wanting migrants to die in the sea is having some shred of basic humanity.

[Philipw]

Originally Posted by weltklasse

I am rather doubtful, its sad that some posters on here think blaming the french for everything is a way forward.

Both playing politics to their domestic audience. However stupid BJ may have been, to not have the UK present at a meeting about people crossing from france to england is bonkers.

[GreatGonzo]

Originally Posted by cantspell

I'd be pissed off if I were in the French government and got the first two of those demands.

Well that would depend on whether you accepted that as a frenchman that point 2 was exactly what your country argued for in 1951 when the convention was written.

Bit strange to be too upset about someone suggesting the very thing you suggested in the beginning!

[Hpalace]

Originally Posted by GreatGonzo

Well that would depend on whether you accepted that as a frenchman that point 2 was exactly what your country argued for in 1951 when the convention was written.

Bit strange to be too upset about someone suggesting the very thing you suggested in the beginning!

The world is the same as it was in 1951?

When I look out the window this does not appear the case?

[weltklasse]

Originally Posted by Maz

I wonder who you were talking about? I am assuming that the two posts that follow the above are full of puerile Sloppy indignation.

Indeed they are.

[weltklasse]

Originally Posted by CT_Palace

Of course you can criticise the French. Anyone can. Just be more selective about it. Your post looked to shift criticism onto the French. The letter was sent in full public view from Boris to the French, not the other way round. It’s a bit rich to criticise the French reaction to the letter in this case.

Indeed such level of nuance is way beyond the poster you responded to.

[weltklasse]

Originally Posted by Philipw

Both playing politics to their domestic audience. However stupid BJ may have been, to not have the UK present at a meeting about people crossing from france to england is bonkers.

Which is what i stated very early in the thread. However when the UK likes to circumvent normal diplomacy what do you expect?

[Philipw]

Originally Posted by weltklasse

Which is what i stated very early in the thread. However when the UK likes to circumvent normal diplomacy what do you expect?

It was wrong of johnson, and equally wrong of macron to jump on his high horse when the issue here is people dying. Same knee jerk happened on the aussie submarine deal. He is not immune from poor diplomacy as happened with the ‘ineffective AZ vaccine’ debate.

[stevek]

Originally Posted by Hpalace

Perhaps but I think our demands were quite ridiculous.

1: Our police to patrol France's border is insulting to a nation the size of France
2: All asylum seekers to be returned straight to France is basically saying the UK will no longer take asylum seekers from France and they are now all permanently France's problem.
3: Sharing of data - we have just left the eu. Have we forgotten we have just left the EU?

Entering a negotiation with not just unreasonable demands but frankly insulting demands; is a terrible way to start a negotiation.

In certain respects, the issue isn't whether or not our demands were reasonable. The issue is that our government's objective was clearly - by publishing the letter - to show they are getting tough with the French and putting all the responsibility to solve the issue on the French. The audience for the letter was the British public, not the French government. That is no way to negotiate; and the French reaction is hardly unreasonable.

[Philipw]

Originally Posted by stevek

In certain respects, the issue isn't whether or not our demands were reasonable. The issue is that our government's objective was clearly - by publishing the letter - to show they are getting tough with the French and putting all the responsibility to solve the issue on the French. The audience for the letter was the British public, not the French government. That is no way to negotiate; and the French reaction is hardly unreasonable.

Agree , letter was for the British public and to them all three points appear reasonable, ie offering resource, returning ineligible asylum seekers (but not those who are eligible i assume) and sharing data. Disagree with your last point though - people are dying and potentially restricting the effectiveness of an important meeting because you are pissed off by a letter being published is wrong.

[weltklasse]

Originally Posted by Philipw

Agree , letter was for the British public and to them all three points appear reasonable, ie offering resource, returning ineligible asylum seekers (but not those who are eligible i assume) and sharing data. Disagree with your last point though - people are dying and potentially restricting the effectiveness of an important meeting because you are pissed off by a letter being published is wrong.

his position is not unreasonable

From the BBC

At a press conference on Friday, Mr Macron attacked Mr Johnson over the posting of the letter on Twitter, saying: "I spoke two days ago with Prime Minster Johnson in a serious way.

"For my part I continue to do that, as I do with all countries and all leaders. I am surprised by methods when they are not serious.

"We do not communicate from one leader to another on these issues by tweets and letters that we make public. We are not whistleblowers."

A French government spokesman accused Mr Johnson of saying different things in his conversation with Mr Macron and in the letter, adding: "We are sick of double-speak."


Home Office officials are still taking part in talks with their French counterparts in Paris on how to deal with the Channel crisis.