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  #121  
Old 13-04-2019, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
It was only later that a prosecutor in Swedish under Swedish law found a potential legal reason to charge.
Yes. Rape.

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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
The prosecutor may have a case under Swedish law. But in the English language and under English law I very much doubt his alleged act, which I am in no way defending, would be declared rape.
The judge in the extradition hearing, before Assange skipped bail, confirmed that it would also be rape in the UK.

Out of curiosity, what charge did you think having unconsenting sex with an unconscious woman was in the UK?

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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
Has Sweden ever sought to extradite anyone else for this offence?
I've not looked it up, but I suspect they have tried to extradite for rape before, yes.

Last edited by Heb 7:4; 13-04-2019 at 10:43 PM.
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  #122  
Old 13-04-2019, 10:49 PM
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I find your attitude very odd AJ. You admit little knowledge of the law, yet tell people who simply state the man is facing charges of rape and other acts as 'screeching moral rectitude'. Quite frankly I have no idea what you are on about.

A foreign country under their law have stated they may lay charges. Why do you question it under your limited knowledge of English law? From my equally limited knowledge, there are several countries whi have prosecuted under such terms (the removal without consent of a condom). I have no idea of whether that could be prosecuted in England. As to the other charges, I don't know enough either.

I don't know what agenda I have brought into. One that backs up women? Guilty. As some sort of conspiracy, it's a half arsed way of doing it.
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  #123  
Old 13-04-2019, 10:49 PM
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adrenalin john, if you click on the link Adlerhorst provided above, you will see this under "Myth Number One":
“The allegation of rape would not be rape under English law”
This is flatly untrue. The Assange legal team argued this twice before English courts, and twice the English courts ruled clearly that the allegation would also constitute rape under English law.
Here's the link it provides to a To view the link you have to Register or Login.
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  #124  
Old 13-04-2019, 10:51 PM
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  #125  
Old 13-04-2019, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ebyeeckeagle View Post
I find your attitude very odd AJ. You admit little knowledge of the law, yet tell people who simply state the man is facing charges of rape and other acts as 'screeching moral rectitude'. Quite frankly I have no idea what you are on about.

A foreign country under their law have stated they may lay charges. Why do you question it under your limited knowledge of English law? From my equally limited knowledge, there are several countries whi have prosecuted under such terms (the removal without consent of a condom). I have no idea of whether that could be prosecuted in England. As to the other charges, I don't know enough either.

I don't know what agenda I have brought into. One that backs up women? Guilty. As some sort of conspiracy, it's a half arsed way of doing it.
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  #126  
Old 13-04-2019, 11:52 PM
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There's no way it can be argued it wouldn't be rape. If the condition of sexual intercourse is you do so with a condom, and the consent is then removed because you do so without a condom, you've penetrated that person without their consent. Pretty self explanatory. Just because they consented before hand makes very little difference and I'm pretty sure most courts would see it that way.

Granted, it's on the lower end of the spectrum in terms of severity of the circumstances surrounding it. But still pretty cut and dry it's rape within UK law I would say.
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  #127  
Old 14-04-2019, 01:34 AM
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Werent they seriously questionable in the first place? a couple of women he'd slept with were looking to get him to take an STD test and this became sexual assault?
Why wouldn't they just get themselves tested?
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  #128  
Old 14-04-2019, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
I see the idiots Abbott and Corbyn are asking the British government to block any extradition to the states.

The comedy duo really do need to try to keep up a bit better.
Why should he be extradited to the States?
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  #129  
Old 14-04-2019, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by hughff View Post
It's not that simple. The UK's extradition treaties (in fact, most nations') specifically exclude extradition for political charges. The US charge of computer hacking is theoretically apolitical but, in fact, it relates to providing assistance to Chelsea Manning to obtain some of the information about US war crimes in Iraq. Assange's team are clearly going to make the case that this is therefore a political charge thus not actionable. Indeed the fact that the US has recently To view the link you have to Register or Login provides strong support for this. I have no doubt that the US charges are dishonest, that they want to punish him for the political crime of blowing the whistle on their crimes, and that he should not be allowed anywhere near a US courtroom as justice will be impossible for him.

The Swedish charges are clearly not political though Assange's lawyers will argue that if he is extradited there the US will try to extradite him again. My gut feeling is that this one should probably be allowed to play out i.e. he should be extradited to Sweden, as they are likely to not then extradite him to the US.
The point I was making concerned due process. Thing is, it's not for you, me or indeed Corbyn or Abbot to decide whether or not any of these charges are political. It's for the Courts. We have an independent judiciary and due process for a reason, part of which is to put the brakes on political bias. By deciding this point up front, all they have done is introduce this bias, which is concerning if they aspire to govern.

There are circumstances where this may return to the Home Secretary. The classic example of this was Jack Straw ruling Pinochet was too ill to stand trial in Spain. However this was also part of the legal process.

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Last edited by JDawg; 14-04-2019 at 05:52 PM.
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  #130  
Old 14-04-2019, 05:52 PM
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Why wouldn't they just get themselves tested?
Because that’s irrelevant.
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  #131  
Old 14-04-2019, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by rhino_mik View Post
Why should he be extradited to the States?
To start with that is the wrong question, the idiot duo have asked the government to block it. I've only read a few articles on it but already know its no longer up to the home secretary but the courts. Do these clowns have any advisors or are they just shooting from the hip.

In my view the Swede's should get him back to face trial for the rape. Whereas I realise his lefty luvvy supporters are trying hard to pretend it all a yank conspiracy he needs to answer for that before anything else. The victim wants him tried, she has said so. That is my preference for what its worth.

Failing that I hope he gets 12months for skipping bail so that the Home Sec can deport him back to Oz. Somebody else's problem.

As for deporting him to the US I know its popular on the left to hate the yanks but wikileaks have hacked their systems which can only undermine their operations, its not just the helicopter clip its millions of documents. They are our leading ally in the world and we should be supporting them where we can, by that I mean following legal international agreements made by the government. If that means they should account for themselves for undermining our allies so be it.

Think it through, who are the people supporting your position of being allowed to spout complete bollocks.
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  #132  
Old 14-04-2019, 08:21 PM
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  #133  
Old 14-04-2019, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebyeeckeagle View Post
I find your attitude very odd AJ. You admit little knowledge of the law, yet tell people who simply state the man is facing charges of rape and other acts as 'screeching moral rectitude'. Quite frankly I have no idea what you are on about.

A foreign country under their law have stated they may lay charges. Why do you question it under your limited knowledge of English law? From my equally limited knowledge, there are several countries whi have prosecuted under such terms (the removal without consent of a condom). I have no idea of whether that could be prosecuted in England. As to the other charges, I don't know enough either.

I don't know what agenda I have brought into. One that backs up women? Guilty. As some sort of conspiracy, it's a half arsed way of doing it.
Hold on you said the woman made a claim of rape. She simply didn't.

Nor did the police see it as rape. However a prosecutor later made a case from the statements for rape, but still didn't arrest Assange.

However having looked at the link previously posted, if a UK Judge would also classify this as rape in UK law then I stand completely corrected. I would have thought it would be under a different offence classifications but clearly not.
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  #134  
Old 14-04-2019, 10:12 PM
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A little research I can find not one case of this being prosecuted in the UK or the USA.

I did however find one in Canada and one in Germany of a policeman no less. However the crime was classified as sexual assault not rape.

However in 2017 in Lausanne, 10 miles from where I am now funnily enough, a man was convicted of rape for not using a condom when it was expressly required.
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  #135  
Old 15-04-2019, 05:23 AM
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Sorry, AJ, just clarifying - you are aware that the rape claim was not for refusing to wear a condom but for having sex with her when she was unconscious. Are you sure no-one's ever been convicted of that in the UK? I know there have been examples in the US eg Brock Turner famously.
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  #136  
Old 15-04-2019, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
To start with that is the wrong question, the idiot duo have asked the government to block it. I've only read a few articles on it but already know its no longer up to the home secretary but the courts. Do these clowns have any advisors or are they just shooting from the hip.

In my view the Swede's should get him back to face trial for the rape. Whereas I realise his lefty luvvy supporters are trying hard to pretend it all a yank conspiracy he needs to answer for that before anything else. The victim wants him tried, she has said so. That is my preference for what its worth.

Failing that I hope he gets 12months for skipping bail so that the Home Sec can deport him back to Oz. Somebody else's problem.

As for deporting him to the US I know its popular on the left to hate the yanks but wikileaks have hacked their systems which can only undermine their operations, its not just the helicopter clip its millions of documents. They are our leading ally in the world and we should be supporting them where we can, by that I mean following legal international agreements made by the government. If that means they should account for themselves for undermining our allies so be it.

Think it through, who are the people supporting your position of being allowed to spout complete bollocks.
It was the question because your post was specifically about extradition to the US.

And it seems you want it to happen to appease a stronger military ally. You don't mention whether he's actually broken any laws. I don't suppose that's important to you, as long as they get your particular hate figure.
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  #137  
Old 15-04-2019, 07:20 AM
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Sorry, AJ, just clarifying - you are aware that the rape claim was not for refusing to wear a condom but for having sex with her when she was unconscious. Are you sure no-one's ever been convicted of that in the UK? I know there have been examples in the US eg Brock Turner famously.
No I am not. My understanding was the complaint was not about having unconsented sex per se but having unprotected sex.

I did read that on one of the occasions the person was asleep when the act was initiated. However, I assumed the problem was not the act but that he didn't use a condom.

Or are you saying the victim was unconscious, through drink or drugs. In which case then there is no defense, it is clearly rape and there are many cases proven so in law.

However I really don't think this is the case. Surely the woman would have reported rape, rather than request Assange have an STD test
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  #138  
Old 15-04-2019, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by rhino_mik View Post
It was the question because your post was specifically about extradition to the US.

And it seems you want it to happen to appease a stronger military ally. You don't mention whether he's actually broken any laws. I don't suppose that's important to you, as long as they get your particular hate figure.
Not really it was about what the idiot duo were asking the government to do when they should know its not longer up to them but the courts, see below for confirmation.

Quote:
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I see the idiots Abbott and Corbyn are asking the British government to block any extradition to the states.

The comedy duo really do need to try to keep up a bit better.

Its also not a question of appeasing anyone just following the law which should apply to him as well as anyone else. I don't have to comment on whether he's broken any US laws as we have an agreed extradition process that should be followed. If we don't we could become a haven for hackers attacking the US military and companies.

I don't hate him anymore than any other rapists but certainly don't want to get into supporting his rape through some nonsense about freedom of the press. Sweden should ask for him so that he can face the accusations. Remember the victim wants him prosecuted.
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  #139  
Old 15-04-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
No I am not. My understanding was the complaint was not about having unconsented sex per se but having unprotected sex.
It's both. The unprotected sex was unconsenting sex. Miss W's claim is that she had sex with Assange the night before in which he unwillingly wore a condom, but that she was very clear she would only allow sex with a condom.

She then woke up the next day with Assange penetrating her without a condom. Something for which she had specifically refused to give consent.

Having unconsenting sex with an unconscious woman is rape. It is very strange that you seem to struggle with this. It's rape in Sweden. It would be rape here.
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  #140  
Old 15-04-2019, 04:11 PM
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