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  #241  
Old 14-08-2019, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by GorBlimey View Post
"Taxpayer's money"


I resent a shitload of stuff funded by taxpayer's money but we're hardly paying Prince Andrew to be "partying and going round with serial child abusers."


F*cking hell, get a grip and worry about the real problems in the world.
Child sex abuse isn’t a real problem?
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  #242  
Old 14-08-2019, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ozzieEagle View Post
I suspect that it could be something to do with the sheer weight of numbers in actual occurrence compared to today.

IE: Mum and Dad finding out what Susie has really been getting up to when out with Tracey and her mates could be one scenario for complaint. Getting Preggers could be another
I like te way you phrase it. What she's been getting up to with her mates, and her getting pregnant.

Its almost as if the other party, who is a fully grown, adult male, capable of making decisions has nothing to do with it.

Its not a complicated rule, even if children want to f**k you, as an adult you should be saying no. Because, they're children. Even if they 15-16 and are sexually active, its not actually that difficult as a grown ass adult male to say no.

Remember in all these cases, we'd be talking about someone over the age of 24, having sex with someone who is under the age of 16 (or someone between the age of 16 and 24 who has previous history). And if your 24, you should be reasonably capable of asking someone how old they are.

But we always keep coming back to the idea that somehow the adult male involved has no responsibility, other than getting consent (which incidently anyone under the age of 16 cannot give fully). Its this mentality of absolution of men, for no good reason, that I can't fathom.
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  #243  
Old 14-08-2019, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
Child sex abuse isn’t a real problem?
Apparently not, reputations are far more important, it seems. Regardless of the instances, Jackson, Savile, Kelly, Harris, Hall et al its far more important to not besmirch someone, than to investigate whether famous people are child rapists.

I feel sorry where the allegations are shown to be completely false, and people are vindicated - and there is a fair argumenent that suspects should not be named until they are charged.

Of course, an interesting case was made with Freddie Starr, was cleared, who sued his accusor for libel / slander, and lost, because whilst the evidence did not reach the grounds of beyond reasonable doubt, the ajduication in civil court found for his accusor. This also applied to Dr Neil Fox, found not guilty because of the offence at the time, having your hand up a child skirt was not technically within the definitions of a sex crime (when the incident occured).

Similarly DLT, not guilty, but evidentially, it was sufficent to establish the events probably occured, but that they were not provable beyond reasonable doubt.

Some of those accused have definately been victims of malicious accusations - but some of those who are very vocal about their innocence, like Neil Fox, were not answerable to charges on the grounds of technicality (like putting your hand up the skirt of a minor, not fulfilling the definition of sexual activity at the time of occurance).

Had it happened now, he'd be eat porridge for breakfast whilst considering his special exercise regime.
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  #244  
Old 14-08-2019, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Apology accepted. Especially as the issue of abuse has had a harrowing effect on people very close to me.

Yes I think there is an issue with the rich and powerful and specific issues about that but clearly this is an issue across society.

Again though it’s good you apologised, thanks.
If I got it wrong and you wanted to talk about child abuse in general, not just using child abuse for the usual shitting on royals and going on about taxpayers money to point score anti royal political rich and powerful far leftie points (Which I do not give a shit about) then no problem at all, I am always happy to hold my hands up.

As for the harrowing affect as we talked about once before one of my very close loved ones had a baby at 15 by a 28 year old year old man which was devastating to me and all around,yes as you know I also take this subject very seriously.
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  #245  
Old 14-08-2019, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Les Butler View Post
If I got it wrong and you wanted to talk about child abuse in general, not just using child abuse for the usual shitting on royals and going on about taxpayers money to point score anti royal political rich and powerful far leftie points (Which I do not give a shit about) then no problem at all, I am always happy to hold my hands up.

As for the harrowing affect as we talked about once before one of my very close loved ones had a baby at 15 by a 28 year old year old man which was devastating to me and all around,yes as you know I also take this subject very seriously.
So we both take it very seriously and both because of harrowing events (sadly several in the case of people I know).

Yes this is about far more than point scoring. I do have an issue with rich and powerful people getting away with abuse, and there are particular issues around this. But I’ve also started threads about the issue of abuse in wider society. You can see my issues about the rich and famous as point scoring but obviously I don’t see it that way.

But anyway as said happy to accept your apology and move on.
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  #246  
Old 14-08-2019, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
Child sex abuse isn’t a real problem?
I do not think he is saying that Child abuse is not a problem,you would have to be crazy to assume that wouldn't you ?

Who would think that ?

The Royals to me are a bunch of people thrown together by history that should be left in history ,they are nothing to be looked up to except maybe for the ceremonial but they are as fecked up as any family I know, nothing mystical at all,that went out the window a long time ago.

If "Prince" Andrew has allegedly done something illegal like any of us he should be made to pay for the alleged crime ,no-one on this thread has disputed that, but so far it's all gossip and by association where many others are in the same boat.
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  #247  
Old 14-08-2019, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
I like te way you phrase it. What she's been getting up to with her mates, and her getting pregnant.

Its almost as if the other party, who is a fully grown, adult male, capable of making decisions has nothing to do with it.

Its not a complicated rule, even if children want to f**k you, as an adult you should be saying no. Because, they're children. Even if they 15-16 and are sexually active, its not actually that difficult as a grown ass adult male to say no.

Remember in all these cases, we'd be talking about someone over the age of 24, having sex with someone who is under the age of 16 (or someone between the age of 16 and 24 who has previous history). And if your 24, you should be reasonably capable of asking someone how old they are.

But we always keep coming back to the idea that somehow the adult male involved has no responsibility, other than getting consent (which incidently anyone under the age of 16 cannot give fully). Its this mentality of absolution of men, for no good reason, that I can't fathom.
I think this post is spot on. There is constant subtle and not so subtle shifting the blame from the people carrying out the abuse.

In terms of names not being made public until charges have been made, there is a case for that (and also a case against). But what I found disgusting was the government ministers proposal:

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At least the government distanced themselves from it.
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  #248  
Old 14-08-2019, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Les Butler View Post
I do not think he is saying that Child abuse is not a problem,you would have to be crazy to assume that wouldn't you ?

Who would think that ?

The Royals to me are a bunch of people thrown together by history that should be left in history ,they are nothing to be looked up to except maybe for the ceremonial but they are as fecked up as any family I know, nothing mystical at all,that went out the window a long time ago.

If "Prince" Andrew has allegedly done something illegal like any of us he should be made to pay for the alleged crime ,no-one on this thread has disputed that, but so far it's all gossip and by association where many others are in the same boat.
Problem is that often 'special rules' apply to royals, people of influence and status, that don't to the rest of us, including political based protection.

I agree that its questionable that someone with his status should be a known associate of a convicted child sex offender after that person has been convicted. Its also telling that Epstiens conviction was itself suprisingly 'lenient and kind', and this kind of thing creates the smoke (even if there may be no fire).

But its also true, that in order for him to lead a private life, its likely that people of discrection and secrecy is necessary.

I'd be astonished if a major royal ever stood trial for a serious offence.
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  #249  
Old 14-08-2019, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Butler View Post
I do not think he is saying that Child abuse is not a problem,you would have to be crazy to assume that wouldn't you ?

Who would think that ?

The Royals to me are a bunch of people thrown together by history that should be left in history ,they are nothing to be looked up to except maybe for the ceremonial but they are as fecked up as any family I know, nothing mystical at all,that went out the window a long time ago.

If "Prince" Andrew has allegedly done something illegal like any of us he should be made to pay for the alleged crime ,no-one on this thread has disputed that, but so far it's all gossip and by association where many others are in the same boat.
Many others? You think most people would party and be friends with a convicted serial child abuser and take money off them? I don’t.

But there is also an issue with how the rich and famous are treated differently. Epstein was given a deal and let out very quickly and embraced again by “high society”. There is clearly double standards in how people are treated.
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  #250  
Old 14-08-2019, 09:35 AM
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  #251  
Old 14-08-2019, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Les Butler View Post
I do not think he is saying that Child abuse is not a problem,you would have to be crazy to assume that wouldn't you ?

Who would think that ?

The Royals to me are a bunch of people thrown together by history that should be left in history ,they are nothing to be looked up to except maybe for the ceremonial but they are as fecked up as any family I know, nothing mystical at all,that went out the window a long time ago.

If "Prince" Andrew has allegedly done something illegal like any of us he should be made to pay for the alleged crime ,no-one on this thread has disputed that, but so far it's all gossip and by association where many others are in the same boat.
A significant portion of this thread does include lots of people defending Statutory Rape / Unlawful Sexual Intercourse with a degree of victim blaming (Girls look older, it was different back then, girls went out looking for it etc). So I can understand why it does seem that for some, there are child sex offences (which they may or may know people who committed) and child sex offences (which they regard as more serious - ie ones that they and their friends have not commited).

Justifications about why someone might have had sex with a 15 year old, don't absolve people of having commited a serious sexual offence unless they were actively decieved (and it seems that in the most part this isn't what people are saying, they're saying it was 'just acceptable' back then - much like raping a drunk woman was acceptable).

Their failure to assure consent seems to be insignificant.
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  #252  
Old 14-08-2019, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Many others? You think most people would party and be friends with a convicted serial child abuser and take money off them? I don’t.

But there is also an issue with how the rich and famous are treated differently. Epstein was given a deal and let out very quickly and embraced again by “high society”. There is clearly double standards in how people are treated.
Again you are singling it down to one person,many others did party and take money from Epstein, those people will also be worried about the outcome of this.
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  #253  
Old 14-08-2019, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Les Butler View Post
Again you are singling it down to one person,many others did party and take money from Epstein, those people will also be worried about the outcome of this.
And indeed they should. Including Clinton, Trump and many others.
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  #254  
Old 14-08-2019, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
A significant portion of this thread does include lots of people defending Statutory Rape.
No,you are absolutely wrong, no one (especially me)is defending any kind of rape or abuse especially to children.

What most have said is that it was a a norm accepted to certain extent going back which is still wrong.
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  #255  
Old 14-08-2019, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
A significant portion of this thread does include lots of people defending Statutory Rape / Unlawful Sexual Intercourse with a degree of victim blaming (Girls look older, it was different back then, girls went out looking for it etc). So I can understand why it does seem that for some, there are child sex offences (which they may or may know people who committed) and child sex offences (which they regard as more serious - ie ones that they and their friends have not commited).



Justifications about why someone might have had sex with a 15 year old, don't absolve people of having commited a serious sexual offence unless they were actively decieved (and it seems that in the most part this isn't what people are saying, they're saying it was 'just acceptable' back then - much like raping a drunk woman was acceptable).



Their failure to assure consent seems to be insignificant.


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  #256  
Old 14-08-2019, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Les Butler View Post
I do not think he is saying that Child abuse is not a problem,you would have to be crazy to assume that wouldn't you ?

Who would think that ?

The Royals to me are a bunch of people thrown together by history that should be left in history ,they are nothing to be looked up to except maybe for the ceremonial but they are as fecked up as any family I know, nothing mystical at all,that went out the window a long time ago.

If "Prince" Andrew has allegedly done something illegal like any of us he should be made to pay for the alleged crime ,no-one on this thread has disputed that, but so far it's all gossip and by association where many others are in the same boat.
What do you think he was saying then?
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  #257  
Old 14-08-2019, 10:04 AM
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I have never met Prince Andrew, but from those who have I have never heard a good word said about him
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  #258  
Old 14-08-2019, 10:13 AM
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What do you think he was saying then?
Thankfully I was at the start of a long term relationship by 21 so I don't think I went into that territory but do the youngsters nowadays ask for identification of age when in a night club at two in the morning and purposely have sex knowingly with underage girls ?

I wonder how many on here broke the law and did not know it.

We all know what the law is and what is right or wrong, there is no doubt in anyone's mind about that on this thread but some seem to make it out to be such a black and white issue without consideration of circumstance .
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  #259  
Old 14-08-2019, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Regardless of the instances, Jackson, Savile, Kelly, Harris, Hall et al its far more important to not besmirch someone, than to investigate whether famous people are child rapists.
Kelly?
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Old 14-08-2019, 10:18 AM
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No,you are absolutely wrong, no one (especially me)is defending any kind of rape or abuse especially to children.

What most have said is that it was a a norm accepted to certain extent going back which is still wrong.
Plenty seem to be justifying what it wasn't 'really rape' by presenting lots of arguements about how it could not be the adult males fault. Which is defending or at least mitigating a child sex offence (Statutory rape). Which is kind of how sex offender tend to justify their actions (by creating a false context in their own mind - that they're the real victim).

Worryingly the context of those 'mitigations' were largely about the girl not their own failures, or failings of men to simply try to avoid having sex with minors. When we say something is a norm, what we're doing is creating an excuse, in this case, for people having unlawful sex with underage girls.

I'd agree, 'rape culture' was much more prevelent and acceptable in the past, than it is now, but in saying that we should not absolve ourselves of responsibility for creating or participanting in that atmosphere - or that our actions and beliefs do not create an accepting environment now where we seek to find excuses for people committing sexual offences, typcially against women, when it suits us (Chad Evans for example).
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