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  #101  
Old 12-08-2019, 01:08 PM
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BTW Johanna Sjoberg was born in 1978..... So when and where did this incident with that silly twat Andrew happen?


Seems like certain facts get overlooked when this emotive issue comes to the fore.
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  #102  
Old 12-08-2019, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Blind_Eagle View Post
So back then, if a bloke under 24 had sex with a girl over the age of 13 who he believed was over 16, he wasn’t actually committing any offence, let alone “a serious sexual offence”.
Provided he had no prior history, and no complaint was made he'd be ok - If he was over 24, she was over 13 and of sound mind.

Belief isn't an issue, there is an inherent responsibility for an reasonable adult to ascertain the age of a sexual partner (i.e. its down to you to ask). If someone lies, you may have had a reasonable defence, or if they looked much older than their teens (hard to prove - but it would need to be established that it was the act of a reasonable person to believe she couldn't be under age and that it wasn't necessary to ask).

Notably, if the parents or girl made a complaint, you'd be investigated and likely charged.
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  #103  
Old 12-08-2019, 01:29 PM
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I could laugh at the gay copper stuff, but that tv presenter was disgusting. What a ****.
Fergie Olver is a Canadian former game show host and sportscaster. He is best known for co-hosting the 1980-85 children's game show Just Like Mom with his wife Catherine Swing, and his work as a broadcaster and dugout reporter for the Toronto Blue Jays. Olver's daughter, Carrie Olver, is known for her work on shopping channels and The Weather Network.

A while back, Lisa posted a video of clips of Bob Barker harassing women — sorry, “girls,” as he invariably referred to them — on The Price Is Right. Sadly, that video has been yanked from YouTube. But reader Melissa sent in another example of harassment and general creepiness on game shows, this time from the 1980s Canadian show Just Like Mom. Host Fergie Olver seemed to have a running gag of trying to get the young female contestants on the show to kiss him, even trying to sneak kisses after girls had very clearly said no .

[img]*****[/img] I edited out the picture myself of this perv kissing a kid
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  #104  
Old 12-08-2019, 01:31 PM
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I think he is saying that the climate is very different now. I do know it was hard to get close to most of the girls in your class, because lots of them were going out with a 'Kev', who had his own car and money from his job at the post office or factory apprenticeship. It really was a thing. And Oz is right - nobody batted an eyelid.
It was kind of like that in the 80s, with some girls my age (by no means all). Although the 'Kev' in question was probably 18-20 years old.

But then we had a teacher who'd been sacked from his previous school for sexual misconduct with an under age student, and another who managed to avoid charges because he married the girl in question (and in fairness is still married to her).
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  #105  
Old 12-08-2019, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
It was kind of like that in the 80s, with some girls my age (by no means all). Although the 'Kev' in question was probably 18-20 years old.

But then we had a teacher who'd been sacked from his previous school for sexual misconduct with an under age student, and another who managed to avoid charges because he married the girl in question (and in fairness is still married to her).
We had a music teacher where she taught us how to play our instruments when we were around 15 but only in the music storeroom...

She was removed to another school as her rep went around the school.....Nothing happened to her and we never looked upon it as abuse.

Seems different when a woman does it for some odd reason.

We had a boxing coach chucked out "eventually" where we used to train at the school on whitehorse rd where he used to like to take us swimming and play "games"..
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  #106  
Old 12-08-2019, 01:43 PM
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It does seem a very different world back then to now when you really think about it,
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  #107  
Old 12-08-2019, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Belief isn't an issue, there is an inherent responsibility for an reasonable adult to ascertain the age of a sexual partner (i.e. its down to you to ask). If someone lies, you may have had a reasonable defence, or if they looked much older than their teens (hard to prove - but it would need to be established that it was the act of a reasonable person to believe she couldn't be under age and that it wasn't necessary to ask).
If “belief isn't an issue” then why is it specifically included in the legislation you quoted?

he believes her to be of the age of sixteen or over and has reasonable cause for the belief.
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  #108  
Old 12-08-2019, 01:50 PM
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It does seem a very different world back then to now when you really think about it,
The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.
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  #109  
Old 12-08-2019, 02:13 PM
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The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.
Absolutely and in no way am I excusing anyone or absolving these perves....You think we have come a long way yet we still put kids at risk for different reasons now.
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  #110  
Old 12-08-2019, 02:37 PM
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If “belief isn't an issue” then why is it specifically included in the legislation you quoted?

he believes her to be of the age of sixteen or over and has reasonable cause for the belief.
Sorry, you're right, has reasonable cause to believe she is over 16. That in law, means it would be the act of a reasonable man to believe she was older than 16. Just saying you believe it, isn't enough, it has to be demonstrated to be so.

This typically this is hard to prove, unless you have a situation where someone has a medical or developmental disorder. Its also risky because as a defence it means admitting sexual activity occured. She might have looked 21 in the night club, when you were pissed with your mates. But in front of the Jury in the Court room, she might well look very different - and thats who the jury get to see.

A key issue here, is that people under the age of 16 aren't going to be considered responsible if they lie and then say they were just trying to impress an older man, who took advantage of their impressionable young mind etc - They're a child, by law. You on the other hand, are a reasonable adult man, who is much older and fully responsible, in law, for their own decisions.

Meanwhile, you're in court and your defence representation is doing its best to defend you. But the prosecution then puts a 15 year old girl in her school uniform up as a witness, a witness 10 years younger than you, that you just admitted having sex with. Who do you think the jury is going to believe...

Especially as its gone to court (meaning the girl or her parents have made a complaint etc). This plays into the she's a good girl, you're a dirty man etc... Its important to remember that whilst Savile and co got away with it - it was largely because of who their victims werea and societies judgements.
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  #111  
Old 12-08-2019, 02:42 PM
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Absolutely and in no way am I excusing anyone or absolving these perves....You think we have come a long way yet we still put kids at risk for different reasons now.
The same kind of kids that Savile preyed upon, are the same ones the Asian grooming gangs preyed on - Typically you got away with it if they were 'dirty girls' (ie deliquents, in care, troubled, wild etc). If it was the Parsons Daughter or a good girl from a good, hardworking family - chances are if the police became involved you could be proper f**ked (and being a sex offender in the prisons of the 60s and 70s would be far worse than it is now). People were sent down, nonces were a thing - we just were more lenient based on the kind of kids they were molesting.

The thing isn't that society has changed that much. Its definately improved - but for the most part, the most vulnerable kids are the ones who are still being failed, still being abused and still being ignored.
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  #112  
Old 12-08-2019, 02:54 PM
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Jesus f-ing hell! Lock that pervert up!
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  #113  
Old 12-08-2019, 03:11 PM
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Sorry, you're right, has reasonable cause to believe she is over 16. That in law, means it would be the act of a reasonable man to believe she was older than 16. Just saying you believe it, isn't enough, it has to be demonstrated to be so.

This typically this is hard to prove, unless you have a situation where someone has a medical or developmental disorder. Its also risky because as a defence it means admitting sexual activity occured. She might have looked 21 in the night club, when you were pissed with your mates. But in front of the Jury in the Court room, she might well look very different - and thats who the jury get to see.

A key issue here, is that people under the age of 16 aren't going to be considered responsible if they lie and then say they were just trying to impress an older man, who took advantage of their impressionable young mind etc - They're a child, by law. You on the other hand, are a reasonable adult man, who is much older and fully responsible, in law, for their own decisions.

Meanwhile, you're in court and your defence representation is doing its best to defend you. But the prosecution then puts a 15 year old girl in her school uniform up as a witness, a witness 10 years younger than you, that you just admitted having sex with. Who do you think the jury is going to believe...

Especially as its gone to court (meaning the girl or her parents have made a complaint etc). This plays into the she's a good girl, you're a dirty man etc... Its important to remember that whilst Savile and co got away with it - it was largely because of who their victims werea and societies judgements.
But in reality that wasn't how it worked - a lot of people got off on the basis that they reasonably believed she was 16+. In fact a lot of cases never even got to court. A grainy picture of her dressed up to the nines and evidence you met her drinking rum and black in a pub was fairly standard as long as the man was not that old. And I am not sure why you think that people under the age of 16 are not going to be considered responsible if they lie. The age of criminal responsibility in the UK is 10. In the 70's people lied all the time about their age - ID was not asked for or given mainly because most people didn't have any - passorts were for the few as were driving licences. I wasn't exactly a hell raiser but drank in many pubs with no problem at all under the age of 18.

To suggest that Savbille etc got away with it because of who they were is to completely misunderstand what the mood of the time was. More or less everyone "got away with it" and those that didn't tended to be either obvious predators or unlucky.
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  #114  
Old 12-08-2019, 03:11 PM
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Yep thats what this thread is really about with CR getting a bit annoyed and frustrated why it's not just focused on one minor alleged sexualle assult by a Royal rather than the many rapes,sexualle assults that did happen at that time against kids,not alleged.

That they were common place and why they got away with it,what was the thinking process that allowed a bloke back then to "date" an underage girl from school,even picking her up at the gate? ...I don't think there is no downplaying or deflecting just a serious conversation of what was nearly the norm back then.
You’re tedious. It was a major news story.

If you wanna set up a thread about that do so.

I think an alleged sexual assault (why you would wanna down play that as minor I’ve no idea), and going round with a serial child abuser at tax payers expense is clearly an issue.
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  #115  
Old 12-08-2019, 03:14 PM
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I worked with a "self proclaimed" roadie from Black Sabbath whilst at Morgan Guaranty back in circa 71.... You can add the whole of them to the list as well......and Him. He's stories from the "Bridgehouse tavern" were the eye openers at work at that time.

Age wasn't relevant back then, looks and availability were. Good girls stayed home, kept in by their parents. The others waited behind outside the venue gladly and happily for the band.
Ffs
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  #116  
Old 12-08-2019, 04:04 PM
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Ffs
You see that is where the massive gap is - I went to school with girls who could well have been there - I'm not saying it was right but it was what people did at the time. As teenagers we didn't think we were being exploited (even if we were) and picking up a pop start after going on TOTP would have been seen as a massive coup. Girls often went out with blokes several years older than them - it wasn't seen as odd or pervy - it was a continuation of a past era when that was commonplace but without the restraints that had been in place in the past -the availability of the pill made us think we were invincible.
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  #117  
Old 12-08-2019, 04:07 PM
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. Girls often went out with blokes several years older than them - it wasn't seen as odd or pervy - it was a continuation of a past era when that was commonplace but without the restraints that had been in place in the past -the availability of the pill made us think we were invincible.
I remember this as being the norm. The reason (I always maybe incorrectly assumed) is that said blokes had a) transport that wasn't a bicycle b) income and c) could buy drinks in a pub legally.


How could we compete with all of that?
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  #118  
Old 12-08-2019, 04:09 PM
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You see that is where the massive gap is - I went to school with girls who could well have been there - I'm not saying it was right but it was what people did at the time. As teenagers we didn't think we were being exploited (even if we were) and picking up a pop start after going on TOTP would have been seen as a massive coup. Girls often went out with blokes several years older than them - it wasn't seen as odd or pervy - it was a continuation of a past era when that was commonplace but without the restraints that had been in place in the past -the availability of the pill made us think we were invincible.
This is my recollection. I can remember a 15 year old friend of mine being exceptionally proud to have got off with a certain band member after a gig.

If you had asked was she being exploited she would have thought you starking raving bonkers.
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  #119  
Old 12-08-2019, 04:09 PM
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You’re tedious. It was a major news story.

If you wanna set up a thread about that do so.

I think an alleged sexual assault (why you would wanna down play that as minor I’ve no idea), and going round with a serial child abuser at tax payers expense is clearly an issue.


I feel that what is being discussed has everything to do with the subject matter rather than your one dimensional political hate of the royal family which if anything is using child abuse as a propaganda tool ...

It is not you who dictates what is discussed on any thread,you have repeated you point over and over, yes Prince Andrew was associated with a serial child abuser as many others were and there is an alleged assault incident...???
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Old 12-08-2019, 04:18 PM
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You see that is where the massive gap is - I went to school with girls who could well have been there - I'm not saying it was right but it was what people did at the time. As teenagers we didn't think we were being exploited (even if we were) and picking up a pop start after going on TOTP would have been seen as a massive coup. Girls often went out with blokes several years older than them - it wasn't seen as odd or pervy - it was a continuation of a past era when that was commonplace but without the restraints that had been in place in the past -the availability of the pill made us think we were invincible.
That’s not what my comment was aimed at.

It was at the comment about older blokes. That age wasn’t relevant then. Really? Why were there laws against it then. And the idea of “good girls”.

The blokes knew what they were doing was wrong and in many cases criminal. The fact that they weren’t arrested and disgusting behaviour was accepted more doesn’t make it any better.
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