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  #61  
Old 09-05-2015, 08:23 AM
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EU will fight hard to keep the UK, they have a massive shitstorm coming and adding the UK leaving to that could tip the whole project over the edge.
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  #62  
Old 09-05-2015, 08:25 AM
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It's not really about Europe though, is it? It's about the EU. Britain will always be part of Europe, but whether it wants to be a part of what the EU has become is a debate that needs to take place.
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  #63  
Old 09-05-2015, 08:35 AM
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Out

Never thought I would vote against being in the EU but it has lost it's way when it comes to protecting workers pay , conditions and pensions etc , It's going to be difficult to find trading partners and will probably end out costing the UK more than being in the EU I am sure .

Last edited by racehorse-80s; 09-05-2015 at 08:53 AM.
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  #64  
Old 09-05-2015, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by civil eagle View Post
From tax payers across the whole of the member states
I wonder if we would be better just funding the programmes ourselves. It seems a bit daft sending it to Europe only for a bit of it to dribble back?

It sounds like a racket.
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  #65  
Old 09-05-2015, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by dim View Post
I wonder if we would be better just funding the programmes ourselves. It seems a bit daft sending it to Europe only for a bit of it to dribble back?

It sounds like a racket.
We fund those projects as well: the European Social Fund is matched funding. It's all costed in for years to come and all the sums say it's added value. It's paid for things we couldn't do otherwise, which Treasury would not or could not fund. We do not use some other funds because these are new sources we did not budget for and as such are subject to an abatement effect (impact on the rebate etc) by which in the longer term the taxpayer also pays for a chunk of the 50% that comes from the EU so the real split is about 85% UK contribution and 15% EU. That doesn't apply to the ESF.
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  #66  
Old 09-05-2015, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by dim View Post
I wonder if we would be better just funding the programmes ourselves. It seems a bit daft sending it to Europe only for a bit of it to dribble back?

It sounds like a racket.


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But here’s the important caveat…

This graph only takes into account money we get back directly, and doesn’t include the value of other things the UK benefits from, such as the European Court of Justice, trade with the EU, and the wide range of other benefits associated with EU membership.
There seems to be no real numbers on this, why? what are the 'other benifits' what are they hiding, if they are hiding anything, all sounds a bit made up to confuse the ordinary person in the street

Why not 'ringfence' the money we pay in (and add the % of increase we would have paid in) and just spend the money on ourselves.
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  #67  
Old 09-05-2015, 08:55 AM
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I will vote out. And nothing will change that. It's a matter of principle.
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  #68  
Old 09-05-2015, 08:59 AM
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I've made my view clear that I would vote to leave (due to risks to parliamentary sovereignty) subject to certain conditions. A key one is that we have to be certain that we can manage to get the benefits to outweigh the costs. We can't do that yet because global trade conditions aren't favourable and our economy ain't strong enough. (On this, Mat ov's argument on imports/exports is deceptively simple and ignores all flows that have to be taken into account.) This is one reason why I think it was silly to fix a time for the referendum without having worked on the conditions and Cameron's confidence is misplaced about the chances of negotiating favourable terms when he has isolated the UK even from its strong allies. Above all I think the debate will be of poor quality and that depresses me.
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  #69  
Old 09-05-2015, 09:13 AM
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Sovereignty issues make me err on the side of out.. Brussels should not be able to interfere or dictate to any nation on its laws.. If we can get concessions on that then i might feel different . But mat is right.. They need us far more than we need them , it will be an interesting lead up to the referendum ..
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  #70  
Old 09-05-2015, 09:17 AM
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I do love the way many of the UK public seem to think Europe needs us and they are desperate for us to stay in , Typical stupid british superiority complex coming into play I think .

Last edited by racehorse-80s; 19-05-2015 at 08:00 AM.
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  #71  
Old 09-05-2015, 09:23 AM
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I would like to see a proper debate removed from name calling with the key points for staying in and leaving laid out clearly.

I say with my position being in favour of staying in
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  #72  
Old 09-05-2015, 09:23 AM
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How many people does it take to want a referendum on something to get a referendum on that thing?
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  #73  
Old 09-05-2015, 09:24 AM
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How many people does it take to want a referendum on something to get a referendum on that thing?
We don't have that sort of system.
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  #74  
Old 09-05-2015, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by racehorse-80s View Post
I do love the way many of the UK public seem to think Europe needs us and they are desperate for us to stay in , Typical stupid british superior complex coming into play I think .
You think the Germans want to lose the second biggest Economy in the EU, wonder whose tax payers will be making that funding hole up....
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  #75  
Old 09-05-2015, 09:24 AM
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OUT
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  #76  
Old 09-05-2015, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by racehorse-80s View Post
I do love the way many of the UK public seem to think Europe needs us and they are desperate for us to stay in , Typical stupid british superior complex coming into play I think .
Lol not really it's comes from fact we're 2nd most influential power after the Germans .
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  #77  
Old 09-05-2015, 09:26 AM
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Will the UK leaving the EU force large multinationals and foreign banks to up roots and move their European HQ's from the UK? Interested to know.
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  #78  
Old 09-05-2015, 09:27 AM
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Lol not really it's comes from fact we're 2nd most influential power after the Germans .
You just proved my point
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  #79  
Old 09-05-2015, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Mat ov CPFC View Post
It is quite simple really. A sovereign nation state should be able to decide who or who does not cross its borders. Along with having its national assembly/congress/what ever as the final arbiters of what laws it does or does not pass.

It is about whether you want the UK to be a sovereign state or as part of wider, federalised, body.
Bloody hell, Matov. Of all people, I hadn't suspected you of an inferiority complex.
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  #80  
Old 09-05-2015, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ebyeeckeagle View Post
We don't have that sort of system.
What do you mean?

We have a very vocal minority about to waste many millions of public money.
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