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  #61  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:04 PM
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I have a little difficulty with this, and possibly may get slammed for this post

The word 'nigger' is probably the KIng of kings of racist language, and therefore, rightly, is a taboo word. Even when used within the black community, it is meant in a derogatory fashion as it refers to a certain type of black person (as far as I am aware).

'Nigger in the woodpile' though having its roots in slavery, has a meaning that goes beyond a simple slur on black people and became a common phrase.

The stupidity of using the word 'nigger' in these more enlightened times is almost beyond comprehension, particularly from a public figure. However the use of a racist word is not in itself a reason to label someone racist and I would rather judge this person on their general attitude towards issue of race over her career than on one error of judgement.

Anyone know what her voting record is on issues that could be seen to involve race?

I know she was one of the Tory rebels who voted against military action against Syria, because of her concerns about its real intention.
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  #62  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:04 PM
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Does using a racist figure of speech make you a racist? (and yes, the derivation of it is definitely and unequivocally racist)
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  #63  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Jukesy View Post
To be fair, you asked what is TM going to do about it? You have your answer now. The maximum she could. The only other thing that could happen is the Police get involved. The question in your opening post has been answered.

So, this thread either carries on repeating the same outcome and drifts down the list or it morphs into a discussion about racism in politics.

Not naming names, but I have heard first hand a Conservative MP using language that would be deemed racist even in the dark old days of the 60s and 70s, it was deplorable.

Likewise, the treatment by JC's bully boys towards Jewish MPs in the Labour party is equally deplorable.
Again, a post I mostly agree with, but again not reading my actual question, and responding with a post not related to what I asked.

I agree the party has done what it can to deal with the issue now.

I say again, though, that I am, shocked and disturbed by the fact that nobody said anything at the time the word was used.

Nothing done since dealt with that for me.
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  #64  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:05 PM
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Does using a racist figure of speech make you a racist? (and yes, the derivation of it is definitely and unequivocally racist)
Yes.
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  #65  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:07 PM
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Yes.
oh. OK. Just checking.
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  #66  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Taking traditional anti-Semitic smears and replacing the word "Jew" with the word "Zionist" doesn't magically dismiss the bigotry.

Calling Jews "zios" (Oxford Labour club) doesn't mean you aren't a bigot.

I'm on mobile but there's a ton of articles you can google on the issues of anti-Semitism on the left. If you just dismkss as "oh it's Israel it's fine" you're turning a blind eye IMO.
From my point of view on this, I am very anti-Israel defence policy. However, I have no problem with Jewish people.

Therefore, reading that you are actually saying that anyone on the Left is hypocritical for saying that using the word "n*****r" in the Houses of Parliament is awful because some people on the Left say Israel is bad does not, to me, make any sense.

If people on the left are actually being racist to Jews that is a different matter, and must be dealt with.

None of this makes me a hypocrite for pointing out that saying "n*****r" in the Houses of Parliament should be strongly responded to, immediately.
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  #67  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:29 PM
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Does the use of the expression "nigger in the woodpile" in a Dr Seuss book mean we will remove his books from our libraries.
There's May has acted swiftly and effectively.
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  #68  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by smileysmith View Post
Yes.
Even when what was said was not said in anyway actually related to race issues?
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  #69  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mexicaneagle View Post
Does using a racist figure of speech make you a racist? (and yes, the derivation of it is definitely and unequivocally racist)
No, but there is an entire segment of the left who has reduced the fight against racism to the policing of proscribed words, and the subsequent witch hunts that follow anytransgression.

It's ludicrous. Many actual racists are scrupulously careful with their language, many who say a racist word aren't actual bigots.
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  #70  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:32 PM
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Bollocks. You're trying to tell me someone that says "n*****r in the woodpile" isn't being racist?

Well, we're clearly not going to agree.
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  #71  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smileysmith View Post
Bollocks. You're trying to tell me someone that says "n*****r in the woodpile" isn't being racist?

Well, we're clearly not going to agree.
Come on Smiley, play the white man (I always thought that was a cricket reference). How about "long time no see", which derives from mocking pidgin English?

Surely using figures of speech that are racist reflects on the culture - speech idioms and figures can become entrenched and embedded long after the attitude that created them has gone.
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  #72  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by smileysmith View Post
Bollocks. You're trying to tell me someone that says "n*****r in the woodpile" isn't being racist?

Well, we're clearly not going to agree.
How can you conclude with certainty that someone using a phrase in a totally non racial context is a racist?

To tackle racism we need to be careful not to turn it into a witchhunt.
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  #73  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by smileysmith View Post
Bollocks. You're trying to tell me someone that says "n*****r in the woodpile" isn't being racist?

Well, we're clearly not going to agree.
So much anger and so quick to condemn without knowing all the facts about this person and the context in which she spoke. The term she used is inappropriate in today's parlance, but using it inadvertently does not necessarily make her a racist

You're obviously quite young, in your approach to life anyway.
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  #74  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by smileysmith View Post
Again, a post I mostly agree with, but again not reading my actual question, and responding with a post not related to what I asked.

I agree the party has done what it can to deal with the issue now.

I say again, though, that I am, shocked and disturbed by the fact that nobody said anything at the time the word was used.

Nothing done since dealt with that for me.
When you say nothing was done at the time, what do you expect? Within 24 hours, she was sacked. I, like you, wasn't there so we have no idea of the reaction of those in the room. It has been dealt with as swiftly as humanly possible.

I'd go one step further and sack her as an MP and call a by-election.
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  #75  
Old 11-07-2017, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by smileysmith View Post
Bollocks. You're trying to tell me someone that says "n*****r in the woodpile" isn't being racist?
.
Actually, exiled has made a very good argument in my view, and I tend to agree with him. The words may have been racist, the intent may not have been.

That shouldn't be used as an excuse for her, however.
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  #76  
Old 11-07-2017, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
I'm on mobile but there's a ton of articles you can google on the issues of anti-Semitism on the left. If you just dismkss as "oh it's Israel it's fine" you're turning a blind eye IMO.
Not turning a blind eye - simply responding to the one example you gave.
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  #77  
Old 11-07-2017, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ExiledStirling View Post
I have a little difficulty with this, and possibly may get slammed for this post

The word 'nigger' is probably the KIng of kings of racist language, and therefore, rightly, is a taboo word. Even when used within the black community, it is meant in a derogatory fashion as it refers to a certain type of black person (as far as I am aware).
Although a derogatory word amongst the black community its also used in a jokey kind of way to describe each other in rap/hiphop songs and general banter..... such as we call each other a bellend or a pillock i suppose.

I sometimes think its the context a word like this is used in that is the problem not necessarily the word itself that causes the offence. I sometimes wonder why a word hurts so much if it is used in a banter situation. I reckon white boys who hang with black boys in poor areas also call each other it in a banter-type way.
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  #78  
Old 11-07-2017, 01:11 PM
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Naz Shah is an MP and didn't have the whip withdrawn for several days.
and where have I defended that?
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  #79  
Old 11-07-2017, 01:11 PM
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That shouldn't be used as an excuse for her, however.
I think this is the key.

I've read Exiled argument, and I understand it.

However, when reading it I'm minded to think about what those that have a right to be offended by these words would say and think.

Here's a quote:
Quote:
Imagine how normalised it was to speak of your human cargo who clearly showed resistance to your legalised enslavement as potential runaways who were often found to be hiding in piles of wooden logs. I imagine it was uttered as an inconvenience that brought much disruption to the proceedings... so often, that it became a casual
turn of phrase as a lasting legacy from your ancestors validated atrocities.
And that's a polite response.

The fact is, even saying something like this is so deeply offensive to a section of our population, and shows such deeply entrenched racism, that yes, to me, if you say that, you are racist.
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Old 11-07-2017, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Jukesy View Post
When you say nothing was done at the time, what do you expect? W
Expect?

Truthfully, if someone said that near me, they'd get an immediate response. That's what I expect.
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