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  #1  
Old 08-01-2019, 01:19 PM
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Electoral Reform

There has been much talk of "taking back control", control by unelected people and democracy during Brexit, both before and after the referendum.

However, there seems to have been little or no discussion of reforming the UK electoral/governance model.

What should the proposals be for the UK to enable democracy and for the people to take back control?

To me it seems there are two mains areas for discussions:

1. Our unelected upper chamber
2. The FPTP voting system, which renders a lot of people's votes meaningless
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  #2  
Old 08-01-2019, 01:22 PM
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We had a chance to change 2 (at least to some degree) in 2011, and voted against it.
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  #3  
Old 08-01-2019, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by stevek View Post
We had a chance to change 2 (at least to some degree) in 2011, and voted against it.
Ironically, my vote in the EU elections carries more weight than my pointless UK election vote in a safe seat thanks to the form of PR used.

If people are going to claim the EU is a house of horrors when it comes to democracy and representation, isn't it time we took another look at the UK?
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Old 08-01-2019, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
Ironically, my vote in the EU elections carries more weight than my pointless UK election vote in a safe seat thanks to the form of PR used.

If people are going to claim the EU is a house of horrors when it comes to democracy and representation, isn't it time we took another look at the UK?
Your suggestion of the first point is i think likely to happen. The HoL has its faults but it is also a significantly useful part of the British democratic system. In theory full of experienced people with expertise that can help the HoC design appropriate legislation whilst never really being able to thwart the elected chamber (although they can make life difficult).

It would be interesting to see what reforms people want to the HoL.

The second has been done this decade and rejected and the coalition government showed to some extent that the country lacks the understanding of coalition politics for it to work.
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  #5  
Old 08-01-2019, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
There has been much talk of "taking back control", control by unelected people and democracy during Brexit, both before and after the referendum.

However, there seems to have been little or no discussion of reforming the UK electoral/governance model.

What should the proposals be for the UK to enable democracy and for the people to take back control?

To me it seems there are two mains areas for discussions:

1. Our unelected upper chamber
2. The FPTP voting system, which renders a lot of people's votes meaningless
Point 1 came about up 5 years ago. The problem is what the second house becomes, the proposal caused an immediate power clash with the members of the HoC and they consequently voted against it. It may be an anachronism but its not disappearing anytime soon.

May has come up with some proposals to further reform the HoL, can't be bothered to google.
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  #6  
Old 08-01-2019, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
The second has been done this decade and rejected and the coalition government showed to some extent that the country lacks the understanding of coalition politics for it to work.
We haven't had a vote on PR.

So taking back control means taking it back for those in marginal constituencies.
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  #7  
Old 08-01-2019, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
Point 1 came about up 5 years ago. The problem is what the second house becomes, the proposal caused an immediate power clash with the members of the HoC and they consequently voted against it. It may be an anachronism but its not disappearing anytime soon.
Wait, you're happy with unelected people having power over our laws but not elected people who might be foreign?
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  #8  
Old 08-01-2019, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
We haven't had a vote on PR.



So taking back control means taking it back for those in marginal constituencies.

Exactly.


Itís amazing how many people get this wrong.
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  #9  
Old 08-01-2019, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
We haven't had a vote on PR.

So taking back control means taking it back for those in marginal constituencies.
We most certainly did, yes you can argue endlessly about what PR is.

Personally I voted for FPTP, the simple issue being that your MP represents your area, under most versions of PR you would end up with some areas that did not represent the majority view of that area. Which is totally wrong to my mind.
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Old 08-01-2019, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
We most certainly did, yes you can argue endlessly about what PR is.

Personally I voted for FPTP, the simple issue being that your MP represents your area, under most versions of PR you would end up with some areas that did not represent the majority view of that area. Which is totally wrong to my mind.
Alternative Vote is not Proportional Representation
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Old 08-01-2019, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
We most certainly did, yes you can argue endlessly about what PR is.



Personally I voted for FPTP, the simple issue being that your MP represents your area, under most versions of PR you would end up with some areas that did not represent the majority view of that area. Which is totally wrong to my mind.


We most certainly did not.
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  #12  
Old 08-01-2019, 03:40 PM
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Wait, you're happy with unelected people having power over our laws but not elected people who might be foreign?
I trust you are going to show where I said that.

Personally I think having foreigners in either is quite outrageous. Being a British citizen should be a minimum requirement.
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  #13  
Old 08-01-2019, 03:41 PM
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Alternative Vote is not Proportional Representation
You can come with any version of PR and then state that if you stand on one leg its not PR. People wanted FPTP get over it.
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Old 08-01-2019, 03:42 PM
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We most certainly did not.
Ooooooooooooooooh yeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssss, we did.
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Old 08-01-2019, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by stevek View Post
We had a chance to change 2 (at least to some degree) in 2011, and voted against it.
The Alternative Vote method offered in 2011 is not more representational than FPTP.

It's a great way of picking a president as you can vote for your favourite candidate even if they are unlikely to win. For a parliamentary election at best it's no better than FPTP.

If you want a more representational parliament then you need to have Proportional Representation. You'll end up with a few extreme fringe MPs, but the electorate won't be forced into tactical voting.
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Old 08-01-2019, 03:51 PM
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Personally, in this modern age of communication at the speed of light I don't think constituencies are relevant any more.

I'd chop the elected chamber down to 100 members elected by PR, and devolve local powers to local councils.
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Old 08-01-2019, 03:53 PM
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The Alternative Vote method offered in 2011 is not more representational than FPTP.

It's a great way of picking a president as you can vote for your favourite candidate even if they are unlikely to win. For a parliamentary election at best it's no better than FPTP.

If you want a more representational parliament then you need to have Proportional Representation. You'll end up with a few extreme fringe MPs, but the electorate won't be forced into tactical voting.
Well I see you are in Epsom, fancy an EDL MP representing you.
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Old 08-01-2019, 03:56 PM
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Wait, you're happy with unelected people having power over our laws but not elected people who might be foreign?
How much control do the Lords have over our laws?
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Old 08-01-2019, 03:58 PM
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The real issue in the U.K. is the fact the legislative and the executive are essentially the same thing. The only time we could have anything approaching a sensible split is where we have a minority government without a coalition and then all that happens is a chunk of the legislative runs around trying achieve a circumstance where they can be both the executive and legislative.
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Old 08-01-2019, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Random* View Post
Personally, in this modern age of communication at the speed of light I don't think constituencies are relevant any more.

I'd chop the elected chamber down to 100 members elected by PR, and devolve local powers to local councils.
They don't only sit in parliament and vote.

Your MP represents you, many people make complaints to their MP's. With a rising and mobile population we probably need more MP's and certainly more movement of boundary's to even out the differences in constituency size. Its difficult now but with only 100 how would you ever get any contact with them if you needed it.
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