Home | Forums | Gallery | Twitter
 
CPFC BBS  

Go Back   CPFC BBS » Off Topic » The Politics Forum

Notices

The Politics Forum Discussions that are wholly or mainly concerned with UK politics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 20-01-2019, 10:57 AM
SKATE's Avatar
SKATE SKATE is offline
Orange Fleecer
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The chairless chair
Age: 65
Posts: 9,623
Rep Power: 21474857
SKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is here
Surveillance capitalism.

During the past two decades surveillance capitalists have had a pretty free run, with hardly any interference from laws and regulations. Democracy has slept while surveillance capitalists amassed unprecedented concentrations of knowledge and power. These dangerous asymmetries are institutionalised in their monopolies of data science, their dominance of machine intelligence, which is surveillance capitalism’s “means of production”, their ecosystems of suppliers and customers, their lucrative prediction markets, their ability to shape the behaviour of individuals and populations, their ownership and control of our channels for social participation, and their vast capital reserves. We enter the 21st century marked by this stark inequality in the division of learning: they know more about us than we know about ourselves or than we know about them. These new forms of social inequality are inherently antidemocratic.
To view the link you have to Register or Login long but interesting read. Have we sold our souls for cute cat pics, political memes and instant shopping gratification?
__________________
Red n Blue ArmyRed n Blue Army

Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream, Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily - life is but a dream!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 20-01-2019, 11:11 AM
Adlerhorst's Avatar
Adlerhorst Adlerhorst is offline
Happy Felix Day!
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Hertfordshire
Age: 41
Posts: 63,488
Rep Power: 21474852
Adlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is here
It started with supermarket loyalty cards. Just a data gathering exercise
__________________
The Defector looks like no other breaking pitch in the game. It is well-supinated, leaving the right hand of Fernandez at a fastball trajectory before the laws of physics cease to apply and the laws of awesome take over.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 20-01-2019, 11:12 AM
Skintagain's Avatar
Skintagain Skintagain is offline
My source from Ocean Park
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Just outside the EU
Posts: 13,168
Rep Power: 21474845
Skintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is here
I'm a little confused, I'm quite happy to be scared. In fact I think its part of the human condition to frighten ourselves. Its just I've no idea what it is I should be worrying about here.

I'm off to check under the bed.

What was that noise...…..
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 20-01-2019, 11:18 AM
Les Butler's Avatar
Les Butler Les Butler is offline
Ex Waddon bloke
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Montréal Canada
Age: 60
Posts: 46,785
Rep Power: 21474857
Les Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is hereLes Butler Sam the man is here
__________________
Just when I thought I was out...They pull me back in
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 20-01-2019, 11:23 AM
Adlerhorst's Avatar
Adlerhorst Adlerhorst is offline
Happy Felix Day!
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Hertfordshire
Age: 41
Posts: 63,488
Rep Power: 21474852
Adlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
I'm a little confused, I'm quite happy to be scared. In fact I think its part of the human condition to frighten ourselves. Its just I've no idea what it is I should be worrying about here.

I'm off to check under the bed.

What was that noise...…..
Until recently I worked for a very very very large telecommunications group. Their attitude towards the data they collected from their users lacked any form of moral compass whatsoever.
__________________
The Defector looks like no other breaking pitch in the game. It is well-supinated, leaving the right hand of Fernandez at a fastball trajectory before the laws of physics cease to apply and the laws of awesome take over.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 20-01-2019, 11:38 AM
SKATE's Avatar
SKATE SKATE is offline
Orange Fleecer
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The chairless chair
Age: 65
Posts: 9,623
Rep Power: 21474857
SKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is hereSKATE Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
I'm a little confused, I'm quite happy to be scared. In fact I think its part of the human condition to frighten ourselves. Its just I've no idea what it is I should be worrying about here.

I'm off to check under the bed.

What was that noise...…..
Just because you haven't noticed that you are being controlled and manipulated through use of your data, doesn't mean it hasn't happened!
__________________
Red n Blue ArmyRed n Blue Army

Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream, Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily - life is but a dream!

Last edited by SKATE; 20-01-2019 at 11:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 21-01-2019, 06:53 PM
Adlerhorst's Avatar
Adlerhorst Adlerhorst is offline
Happy Felix Day!
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Hertfordshire
Age: 41
Posts: 63,488
Rep Power: 21474852
Adlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is here
It is not entirely surprising that one of the first significant fines issued for GDPR breaches goes to...........Google.
__________________
The Defector looks like no other breaking pitch in the game. It is well-supinated, leaving the right hand of Fernandez at a fastball trajectory before the laws of physics cease to apply and the laws of awesome take over.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 21-01-2019, 06:56 PM
RazorsEdge's Avatar
RazorsEdge RazorsEdge is offline
I am a Bad Man
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Croydon
Posts: 6,451
Rep Power: 21474845
RazorsEdge has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
It is not entirely surprising that one of the first significant fines issued for GDPR breaches goes to...........Google.
That is one way of collecting some tax from Google, well done the French
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 22-01-2019, 07:29 AM
DANGERMOUSE's Avatar
DANGERMOUSE DANGERMOUSE is offline
Greatest Mouse Detective
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In a post box in the heart of Mayfair, and at Lloyd's
Age: 43
Posts: 22,977
Rep Power: 21474854
DANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is hereDANGERMOUSE Sam the man is here
The thing I can't fathom about this sort of issue is what actual use this data is to anybody. Yes, as a potential means of state control it is chilling, but commercially...?

I mean, when was the last time anyone actually deliberately clicked on an internet ad (let alone bought anything from it)? If supermarkets collect data which show that people who buy posh crisps also buy posh jam, surely all that does is help them adjust their stock levels?

I accept that I don't understand the full implications, but they aren't obvious to me. (Not like mobile phone tracking and the cashless economy, for example, where the disbenefits are easily apparent.)

The bigger practical worry is that we leave a trail of our personal and financial details across the internet, just waiting to be hacked.
__________________
PENFOLD, SHUSH!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 22-01-2019, 05:42 PM
El Aguila's Avatar
El Aguila El Aguila is online now
Middle class left.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: On Green Dolphin Street.
Age: 54
Posts: 45,988
Rep Power: 21474855
El Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is here
They certainly manage to convince advertisers that it's useful. We've done Facebook ads, though not for a while, but it's beguiling to hear that your ad is reaching all the people in Alicante who like garage rock, for example, if you've got Billy Childish playing down there.
__________________
Salt Peanuts! Salt Peanuts!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 29-01-2019, 03:33 PM
Jules's Avatar
Jules Jules is offline
Can't re member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 4,812
Rep Power: 21474856
Jules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
The thing I can't fathom about this sort of issue is what actual use this data is to anybody. Yes, as a potential means of state control it is chilling, but commercially...?

I mean, when was the last time anyone actually deliberately clicked on an internet ad (let alone bought anything from it)? If supermarkets collect data which show that people who buy posh crisps also buy posh jam, surely all that does is help them adjust their stock levels?

I accept that I don't understand the full implications, but they aren't obvious to me. (Not like mobile phone tracking and the cashless economy, for example, where the disbenefits are easily apparent.)

The bigger practical worry is that we leave a trail of our personal and financial details across the internet, just waiting to be hacked.
A week goes by, and no answer comes. I appreciate it can take time and effort to compose a decent reply, but your question never ever seems to be answered when these types of article appear.

I'm genuinely interested to know the specific dangers. How might an individual be damaged by this "surveillance capitalism"? Is it likely to be by increased prices due to the same companies taking more control? Or losing their job for some reason?

I just can't see how it could be anywhere near as dangerous as, say, the threats of Brexit, Donald Trump, AI and robotics or even ridiculous house-prices.

Anyone?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-02-2019, 10:26 AM
Adlerhorst's Avatar
Adlerhorst Adlerhorst is offline
Happy Felix Day!
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Hertfordshire
Age: 41
Posts: 63,488
Rep Power: 21474852
Adlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules View Post
A week goes by, and no answer comes. I appreciate it can take time and effort to compose a decent reply, but your question never ever seems to be answered when these types of article appear.

I'm genuinely interested to know the specific dangers. How might an individual be damaged by this "surveillance capitalism"? Is it likely to be by increased prices due to the same companies taking more control? Or losing their job for some reason?

I just can't see how it could be anywhere near as dangerous as, say, the threats of Brexit, Donald Trump, AI and robotics or even ridiculous house-prices.

Anyone?
Suppose you are a small company and you have a good idea for a product and sell your product freived from that good idea on the platform of a large American tech group which happens to be the largest route to market out there. That platform now knows more about the demand profile for your product than you do, it then copies / releases are very similar but different product for IP purposes product on it’s platform. Your business is crucified. American tech group makes more money, the UK gets to tax the low profits related to distribution of new said product but not the whole product it would otherwise do.

That’s one way. There are plenty more.

Recently India announced ban on product sales on platforms that the seller has an equity stake in, i.e. Amazon cannot sell amazon products in Indian though amazon.
__________________
The Defector looks like no other breaking pitch in the game. It is well-supinated, leaving the right hand of Fernandez at a fastball trajectory before the laws of physics cease to apply and the laws of awesome take over.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-02-2019, 10:58 AM
Jules's Avatar
Jules Jules is offline
Can't re member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 4,812
Rep Power: 21474856
Jules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is hereJules Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
Suppose you are a small company and you have a good idea for a product and sell your product freived from that good idea on the platform of a large American tech group which happens to be the largest route to market out there. That platform now knows more about the demand profile for your product than you do, it then copies / releases are very similar but different product for IP purposes product on it’s platform. Your business is crucified. American tech group makes more money, the UK gets to tax the low profits related to distribution of new said product but not the whole product it would otherwise do.

That’s one way. There are plenty more.

Recently India announced ban on product sales on platforms that the seller has an equity stake in, i.e. Amazon cannot sell amazon products in Indian though amazon.
Cheers J, that's helpful. Though it makes me want to suggest they small company get their own feckin platform, or route to market. I guess my reaction shows just how accepting the general public are of these increasing inequities.

Last edited by Jules; 01-02-2019 at 11:00 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-02-2019, 12:24 PM
dogstar721 dogstar721 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,151
Rep Power: 21474844
dogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
The thing I can't fathom about this sort of issue is what actual use this data is to anybody. Yes, as a potential means of state control it is chilling, but commercially...?

I mean, when was the last time anyone actually deliberately clicked on an internet ad (let alone bought anything from it)? If supermarkets collect data which show that people who buy posh crisps also buy posh jam, surely all that does is help them adjust their stock levels?

I accept that I don't understand the full implications, but they aren't obvious to me. (Not like mobile phone tracking and the cashless economy, for example, where the disbenefits are easily apparent.)

The bigger practical worry is that we leave a trail of our personal and financial details across the internet, just waiting to be hacked.
Advertising isn't really about selling you the product, but about making you more likely to purchase a product over an alternative one - and positioning of product in a market place - which is something tailored ads are very good at doing.

Whether this is anything really different because of the internet or social media is another question, its certainly easier in a magnitude of scale.

As for social engineering and manipulation, I think yeah it can be utilised in a similar way to influence people, but I don't think its capable of controlling people as it tends to be 'companies selling off data' that 'all manner of interest groups' are interested in.

You could influence an election, largely more by motivating a 'base' or 'group' but its not sophisticated enough, or singular enough to change what people think - For example, you can't use data manipulation to make people racist, but you can use it as a means of identifying people who are racist or more open to a racist agenda, and bringing them into a wider group (for example blurring the lines between Nationalism and say Immigration, as a means of pursuing a 'more racially driven agenda'


People tend to think us existing terms of absolutes (left wing, right wing) but in truth we're far more complicated sociologically and psychologically than simple expressions of values - and we are far more prone to being 'pursuaded' towards a value, than actually believing in it. This is how advertising works, we're being persuaded towards a product, brand or values rather than told to buy it

If you tell someone to do or believe something, 90% of the time it doesn't work unless its something they're already ideologically wedded to. Humans are social creatures, who need to be seduced and incentivised, so that we think its our idea to do / buy or vote X.

The problem is that we don't really like to think that's how our brain operates - we see ourselves as self determined, coherent wholes, rather than socially constructed changelings.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-02-2019, 12:49 PM
rhino_mik's Avatar
rhino_mik rhino_mik is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Larndan
Posts: 8,268
Rep Power: 21474850
rhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is here
What I find surprising is the willingness of people to invite it into their own home. 1984 is accepted where it's corporations rather than the state.
__________________
,
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-02-2019, 02:37 PM
Adlerhorst's Avatar
Adlerhorst Adlerhorst is offline
Happy Felix Day!
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Hertfordshire
Age: 41
Posts: 63,488
Rep Power: 21474852
Adlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules View Post
Cheers J, that's helpful. Though it makes me want to suggest they small company get their own feckin platform, or route to market. I guess my reaction shows just how accepting the general public are of these increasing inequities.
It’s not like Amazon don’t charge for platform access, though is it.
__________________
The Defector looks like no other breaking pitch in the game. It is well-supinated, leaving the right hand of Fernandez at a fastball trajectory before the laws of physics cease to apply and the laws of awesome take over.

Last edited by Adlerhorst; 03-02-2019 at 10:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-02-2019, 10:18 AM
dogstar721 dogstar721 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,151
Rep Power: 21474844
dogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is heredogstar721 Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhino_mik View Post
What I find surprising is the willingness of people to invite it into their own home. 1984 is accepted where it's corporations rather than the state.
Whilst I like the analogy to 1984, it's hard to draw a real parallel between the two uses of surveillance.

Last edited by dogstar721; 03-02-2019 at 03:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-02-2019, 10:03 AM
rhino_mik's Avatar
rhino_mik rhino_mik is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Larndan
Posts: 8,268
Rep Power: 21474850
rhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Whilst I like the analogy to 1984, it's hard to draw a real parallel between the two uses of surveillance.
You can never be sure if Bezos is listening through your Alexa device. It is but the first step.
__________________
,
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-02-2019, 10:26 AM
Skintagain's Avatar
Skintagain Skintagain is offline
My source from Ocean Park
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Just outside the EU
Posts: 13,168
Rep Power: 21474845
Skintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is hereSkintagain Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhino_mik View Post
You can never be sure if Bezos is listening through your Alexa device. It is but the first step.
Listening to you? Suddenly I feel sorry for Bezos.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-02-2019, 12:19 PM
rhino_mik's Avatar
rhino_mik rhino_mik is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Larndan
Posts: 8,268
Rep Power: 21474850
rhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is hererhino_mik Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
Listening to you? Suddenly I feel sorry for Bezos.
Once again your sympathies are misplaced.
__________________
,
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.