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  #21  
Old 29-03-2019, 06:54 PM
TennesseeKing TennesseeKing is offline
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Don't worry though everyone, they're pro remain, they're the good guys really. Definitely not planning on offering the same shit we've seen for years and years, ignore the poorest in society in favour of big business and banks. Etc etc. Tories and Labour might be shit currently, but this just adds another stinking turd to the pile. More choice doesn't ensure we get better quality.
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  #22  
Old 29-03-2019, 07:03 PM
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Reading wiki it does seem that Heidi Allen is a more impressive candidate than austerity Soubrey. I'm a long way from being convinced that these TIGs people represent real change. The country needs redistribution, or at the very least, allocating the proceeds of growth to the low paid and vulnerable communities. Nothing yet to convince me that they represent those ignored by the larger parties but Heidi Allen is at least a start.
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  #23  
Old 29-03-2019, 07:08 PM
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Reading wiki it does seem that Heidi Allen is a more impressive candidate than austerity Soubrey. I'm a long way from being convinced that these TIGs people represent real change. The country needs redistribution, or at the very least, allocating the proceeds of growth to the low paid and vulnerable communities. Nothing yet to convince me that they represent those ignored by the larger parties but Heidi Allen is at least a start.
Indeed, but people can still just chalk Brexit off to thick racists, nothing to do with disenfranchised members of society from the poorest communities getting a raw deal for so long. Regardless of whether the EU was to blame or not, Brexit was a protest vote against the status quo. Haven't really seen anyone suggesting radical reform to appease these people bar possibly Labour (although not sure Corbyn is electable to many), merely return to business as usual after stomping Brexit into the ground for good. Return to the good old days of centrism.
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  #24  
Old 29-03-2019, 07:14 PM
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Indeed, but people can still just chalk Brexit off to thick racists, nothing to do with disenfranchised members of society from the poorest communities getting a raw deal for so long. Regardless of whether the EU was to blame or not, Brexit was a protest vote against the status quo. Haven't really seen anyone suggesting radical reform to appease these people bar possibly Labour (although not sure Corbyn is electable to many), merely return to business as usual after stomping Brexit into the ground for good. Return to the good old days of centrism.
Oh I agree. Sadly, that is what many of the centrist establishment politicians, big business lobbyists and their foot soldier beneficiaries want. I don't think that there will be sufficient electoral support for that though. Still, the problem could be that if blue collar Tories want change from the right and socialists want change via real Labour then the centrist establishment may kill things off if change requires consensus. They won't give up their privileges lightly.
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  #25  
Old 29-03-2019, 07:24 PM
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Oh I agree. Sadly, that is what many of the centrist establishment politicians, big business lobbyists and their foot soldier beneficiaries want. I don't think that there will be sufficient electoral support for that though. Still, the problem could be that if blue collar Tories want change from the right and socialists want change via real Labour then the centrist establishment may kill things off if change requires consensus. They won't give up their privileges lightly.
Pretty much where I'm at, by and large. I was hoping that this window for Brexit could've been an opportunity to work out why so many voted for it, show empathy and understanding to the plight of the communities that voted for it. And then maybe take the opportunity to educate people as to why leaving the E.U isn't the one size fits all cure to their ills and is perhaps rather misguided, and then maybe go about promising to make changes that could benefit communities on local and national scales without the need for acts of self harm.

Instead we get pandering to the far right or attempts to just pass Brexit off as the last stand of a dying breed of racists. All of which does nothing but sow dissent and split the country more, with the status quo pushed as the sanctuary we should be hoping to return too. No change, still not listening to those that are fed up. What a time to be alive.
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  #26  
Old 29-03-2019, 07:29 PM
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The constant agenda on here saying that just because you voted for brecit you are racist is simplistic and sickening. You lefties have no idea about democracy, freedom of speech or choice. As u can tell i think most leavers have given up on this thread. Just go on agreeing with each in your 'safe space', patting each other on the back, and shooting anyone down with abuse if they have different thoughts to you.
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  #27  
Old 29-03-2019, 07:31 PM
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The constant agenda on here saying that just because you voted for brecit you are racist is simplistic and sickening. You lefties have no idea about democracy, freedom of choice or choice. As u can tell i think most leavers have given up on this thread. Just go on agreeing with each in your 'safe space', patting each other on the back, and shooting anyone down with abuse if they have different thoughts to you.
I don't understand who that's aimed at, me? I'm about as left wing as they come.
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  #28  
Old 29-03-2019, 07:35 PM
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Indeed, but people can still just chalk Brexit off to thick racists, nothing to do with disenfranchised members of society from the poorest communities getting a raw deal for so long. Regardless of whether the EU was to blame or not, Brexit was a protest vote against the status quo. Haven't really seen anyone suggesting radical reform to appease these people bar possibly Labour (although not sure Corbyn is electable to many), merely return to business as usual after stomping Brexit into the ground for good. Return to the good old days of centrism.
I agree with you NKE but the stark reality is that blue collar tories, many pensioners and many others don't want to pay more tax. They want low taxes, good pensions and public services where it suits them, and they seemingly don't like to spread wealth especially to furriners I.e cake and eat it......look where that has got us.
The same unrealistic demands has led to the last 8 years of Tory rule, austerity etc whilst we have run up trillions in debt. We just can't keep borrowing without businesses, workers and trade to pay for it.
I too would like infrastructure and housing being made a priority but I am realistic that it will take an 'electable' shift in mindset. The libdems took millions of lower paid out of the tax net and get blamed at the ballot box for endorsing a Tory policy on tuition fees.
We need an honesty in our politicians that explains that trade and immigration can pay for higher standards of living, fair taxes on businesses and workers (preferably towards higher earners)and a responsible press that doesn't just spread fascist propaganda for their owners tax haven status. Tbh I can't see this attitude shift changing across the income spectrum, but a fresh impetus of honesty from non career politicians (i.e. TIG) is worth hearing from
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  #29  
Old 29-03-2019, 07:45 PM
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Johnybegood. Just to be clear you quoted me in a response to Tennerssee King. Although I agree with him on this we are two different posters. You make a good post above re people not wanting to pay more tax and we probably aren't too far apart on this but I will save a full blown boring response post for now as I'm going to the pub in a few minutes.

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  #30  
Old 29-03-2019, 07:48 PM
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Johnybegood. Just to be clear you quoted me in a response to Tennerssee King. Although I agree with him on this we are two different posters. You make a good post above and we probably aren't too far apart on this but I will save a full blown boring response post for now as I'm going to the pub in a few minutes.
I did mean to reply to you NKE, I realised after I posted ....although its broadly in agreement with Tenessee's position wrt to poorer communities feeling ignored as well.
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  #31  
Old 29-03-2019, 07:48 PM
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I agree with you NKE but the stark reality is that blue collar tories, many pensioners and many others don't want to pay more tax. They want low taxes, good pensions and public services where it suits them, and they seemingly don't like to spread wealth especially to furriners I.e cake and eat it......look where that has got us.
The same unrealistic demands has led to the last 8 years of Tory rule, austerity etc whilst we have run up trillions in debt. We just can't keep borrowing without businesses, workers and trade to pay for it.
I too would like infrastructure and housing being made a priority but I am realistic that it will take an 'electable' shift in mindset. The libdems took millions of lower paid out of the tax net and get blamed at the ballot box for endorsing a Tory policy on tuition fees.
We need an honesty in our politicians that explains that trade and immigration can pay for higher standards of living, fair taxes on businesses and workers (preferably towards higher earners)and a responsible press that doesn't just spread fascist propaganda for their owners tax haven status. Tbh I can't see this attitude shift changing across the income spectrum, but a fresh impetus of honesty from non career politicians (i.e. TIG) is worth hearing from
I understand what you're saying, and in honesty I can't say I believe you're wrong either. There's certainly an element of blue collar conservatism in this country, even I can't deny that.

Maybe it's idealism on my part but I believe that people would be receptive to a left of centre government that for me at least, is the only real potential option that would bring about the change discussed. Whether they'd get into power is up for debate, but I think there is enough potential to justify going down that path, I'm just not sure Corbyn is the man to be the fulcrum of such ideals. A new, young leader free of the 'terrorist sympathiser/commie' tag would be the best shout for me.

I genuinely believe Corbyn showed at the last election it's the right direction to go in, he won a fair few seats purely by getting young people engaged for the first time in a long time. It's got to be worth a go rather than more centrism or nationalist far right style politics? I also don't believe this new party is likely to lead us there either, with the likes of Umunna amongst them the smell of 'the same old shit' is a stench they'll find quite difficult to shift even if they give new blood a chance.
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  #32  
Old 29-03-2019, 07:52 PM
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Got to love the Tiggers.

Try to create their new party and on day 1 change.org, #UKChange are already objecting to their new name.

Now they have their representatives saying that the public should be asked, but only on Brexit, they shouldn't be asked who they want as a government!

Another shambles!
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  #33  
Old 29-03-2019, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by macstar View Post
The constant agenda on here saying that just because you voted for brecit you are racist is simplistic and sickening. You lefties have no idea about democracy, freedom of speech or choice. As u can tell i think most leavers have given up on this thread. Just go on agreeing with each in your 'safe space', patting each other on the back, and shooting anyone down with abuse if they have different thoughts to you.
Which rally did you attend today?
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Old 29-03-2019, 08:26 PM
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I understand what you're saying, and in honesty I can't say I believe you're wrong either. There's certainly an element of blue collar conservatism in this country, even I can't deny that.

Maybe it's idealism on my part but I believe that people would be receptive to a left of centre government that for me at least, is the only real potential option that would bring about the change discussed. Whether they'd get into power is up for debate, but I think there is enough potential to justify going down that path, I'm just not sure Corbyn is the man to be the fulcrum of such ideals. A new, young leader free of the 'terrorist sympathiser/commie' tag would be the best shout for me.

I genuinely believe Corbyn showed at the last election it's the right direction to go in, he won a fair few seats purely by getting young people engaged for the first time in a long time. It's got to be worth a go rather than more centrism or nationalist far right style politics? I also don't believe this new party is likely to lead us there either, with the likes of Umunna amongst them the smell of 'the same old shit' is a stench they'll find quite difficult to shift even if they give new blood a chance.
Given the current state of the economy I too would like a left of centre government. Having austerity inflicted on the less well-off but where corporation tax is cut by 10% was an insult too far for me, so left wing redress is more appropriate at the moment.
I agree that Corbyn is a well intentioned guy who did better than expected last election but just has too much baggage and the press has done a job on him. Someone like Mary Creagh represents left of centre and fresh honest thinking. I also think Yvette Cooper and Keir Starmer are more electable.
Even if Corbyn came out with the dream manifesto, if he is not electable, it's just a dream.
They key things to redress are housing and workers rights which includes living wages, stopping executive pay abuse and ending things like zero hours contracts.
But none of the above can happen with a right wing press that is able to manipulate the working classes for effectively voting for policies that is to their detriment
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  #35  
Old 29-03-2019, 09:43 PM
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Indeed, but people can still just chalk Brexit off to thick racists, nothing to do with disenfranchised members of society from the poorest communities getting a raw deal for so long. Regardless of whether the EU was to blame or not, Brexit was a protest vote against the status quo. Haven't really seen anyone suggesting radical reform to appease these people bar possibly Labour (although not sure Corbyn is electable to many), merely return to business as usual after stomping Brexit into the ground for good. Return to the good old days of centrism.
Yes, we know. We've been over this stuff endless times on these threads. You haven't suddenly opened our eyes to the unfairness and inequality that's out there, or some of the reasons those who feel disenfranchised voted the way they did.
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  #36  
Old 29-03-2019, 09:59 PM
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Yes, we know. We've been over this stuff endless times on these threads. You haven't suddenly opened our eyes to the unfairness and inequality that's out there, or some of the reasons those who feel disenfranchised voted the way they did.
Not sure I said I did or was attempting to do such a thing? It's my view which I've expressed, should I just shut up because you'd like me too? It's a thread, related to the posts I have made. Should I just sit back, not comment and just partake in the tribal and partisan abuse both sides dish out to eachother because of the fact something may have been posted 'endless' times?
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Old 29-03-2019, 10:02 PM
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  #38  
Old 29-03-2019, 10:22 PM
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Yes, we know. We've been over this stuff endless times on these threads. You haven't suddenly opened our eyes to the unfairness and inequality that's out there, or some of the reasons those who feel disenfranchised voted the way they did.
Quite. Id love a Labour Government.

Just not this one.
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Old 29-03-2019, 10:30 PM
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Quite. Id love a Labour Government.

Just not this one.
Surely you wouldn't deny there is still an element of anyone who voted for Brexit is thick, racist, insert any other derogatory term you wish here. That was the main point I was going for, that within this clamour for a return to the status quo issues underlying the whole debacle haven't been addressed and there appears to be no real desire to do so. Which is an outright shame. It wasn't really about having a dig at anyone on here, although there is without doubt tribal shite spouted on here on the regular.
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Old 29-03-2019, 10:43 PM
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Oh, while the 'kicking the establishment' element of the Brexit vote is undoubtedly true, I wouldn't underestimate how many thick xenophobic c*nts there are out there. And some of them are the same people. Whatever the reasons to justify this national act of self-harm, stupidity is still the top answer, Les.
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