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  #3861  
Old 18-09-2019, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by GrayP41ace View Post
But again, wiggle room is all ifs and buts. Arguing hypotheticals to back up an assertion doesn't actually prove anything. Benteke's replacement could have been better, the alternatives could have been better, if my Aunt had bollox she'd be my uncle etc. but they could have failed, the new midfielders could have scored 1 each, my Aunt doesn't have bollox.

Benteke did score 15, and because of those 15 goals, we stayed up.

Benteke scored 1 last season and we stayed up. Other players chipped in with goals that he didn't. That cannot be argued. Other players did not chip in with an additional 15 goals the season Benteke did. To argue whether someone could have is irrelevant, the fact remains, they didn't.
They didnít because Benteke played. We wouldnít have played with 10 men. You canít deduct and add nothing. If we had played without a goalkeeper that season we would have got relegated. That is as much of a fact of your 15 goals from Benteke kept us up. Doesnít mean we canít analyse Hennessys performances, that he is beyond any criticism and worth £100m because that was what we got for staying up.
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  #3862  
Old 18-09-2019, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyTKid View Post
They didnít because Benteke played. We wouldnít have played with 10 men. You canít deduct and add nothing. If we had played without a goalkeeper that season we would have got relegated. That is as much of a fact of your 15 goals from Benteke kept us up. Doesnít mean we canít analyse Hennessys performances, that he is beyond any criticism and worth £100m because that was what we got for staying up.
Am I going mad??

Of course we wouldn't have played with 10
Of course if we played without a keeper we would have got relegated

They wouldn't happen. They didn't happen.

Benteke scored 15 goals. This did happen.

Hypothetically taking Benteke out of that team means you now HAVE to guarantee those exact 15 goals/equivalent points gained from those goals, from elsewhere (his replacement or others in the team). That is impossible to prove, pure guesswork and arguing against a known fact?

The £30m and his wages for year 1 got us 15 goals and Premier League survival. That was worth the outlay that season. To argue it didn't because hypothetically someone else could have is a bit odd is it not?

His goal scoring has not been deserving of his wage since then, not denying it, but to argue he was not worth the money after season 1 because someone else could just as conceivably have done is surely wrong.

Only 9 players scored more goals than Benteke that season, to suggest we could have simply signed a replacement 15 goal striker is laughable, they're not 10 a penny.

Slimani was £30m that same season, scoring 7 goals. That input could have seen us relegated?

Not sure about the Hennessey reference tbh. His job was to stop goals being conceded and his mistakes sometimes led to some. Criticism of that seems logical? Benteke's job was to score goals and 15 goals suggests he did just that? Criticism of him actually scoring goals seems illogical? Criticism of him now he's not is fair do's. Never suggested it wasn't.
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  #3863  
Old 18-09-2019, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by GrayP41ace View Post
Am I going mad??

Of course we wouldn't have played with 10
Of course if we played without a keeper we would have got relegated

They wouldn't happen. They didn't happen.

Benteke scored 15 goals. This did happen.

Hypothetically taking Benteke out of that team means you now HAVE to guarantee those exact 15 goals/equivalent points gained from those goals, from elsewhere (his replacement or others in the team). That is impossible to prove, pure guesswork and arguing against a known fact?

The £30m and his wages for year 1 got us 15 goals and Premier League survival. That was worth the outlay that season. To argue it didn't because hypothetically someone else could have is a bit odd is it not?

His goal scoring has not been deserving of his wage since then, not denying it, but to argue he was not worth the money after season 1 because someone else could just as conceivably have done is surely wrong.

Only 9 players scored more goals than Benteke that season, to suggest we could have simply signed a replacement 15 goal striker is laughable, they're not 10 a penny.

Slimani was £30m that same season, scoring 7 goals. That input could have seen us relegated?

Not sure about the Hennessey reference tbh. His job was to stop goals being conceded and his mistakes sometimes led to some. Criticism of that seems logical? Benteke's job was to score goals and 15 goals suggests he did just that? Criticism of him actually scoring goals seems illogical? Criticism of him now he's not is fair do's. Never suggested it wasn't.
Mate I think we could go round in circles all night on this. I canít get my head around why you canít consider the possibility that Benteke has been a poor signing. Yes, he had one good season where we stayed up but we could have found a way to be successful without him. We had worse squads stay up (first season under Pauliís) plus we would have had £30m to spend elsewhere. I brought Hennessy into it as you so fixated on Bentekes 15 goals which you can not accept could have been found elsewhere by a combination of other players. Whether this means other players scoring or us conceding less. To me your logic is the same logic as saying Hennessy got 50+ saves that season and if we didnít have Hennessy we would have gone down as they would have been goals. Surely itís logical to say we would have got another goalkeeper and they could have saved those 50+ shots as well or they may have brought more confidence to the team and so the defence played better and there werenít as many shots? It canít just be Benteke scored 15 goals, there was no other way to stay up and no matter what we paid for him he is a good signing as we stayed up that season?
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  #3864  
Old 18-09-2019, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle96 View Post
We have paid £16M for Sorloth.
Benteke is on £100k/week, which is £5M/year. He signed a four-year deal, meaning our wages outlay will have been £20M for him, which is enough to cover the cost of Sorlothís transfer
Not sure this is accurate?

I don't think we have actually paid £16m...that's the value of the deal subject to appearances etc etc
And as he's out on loan his wages or a percentage of them will be paid by the Club he's been loaned too.
So in reality the investment is c.£8m ?
Not bad for potential these days.

The opinion is split on him a bit like Brexit and every other bleeding thing in this day an age.

Oh the joys of discussion and opinion.
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  #3865  
Old 18-09-2019, 05:37 PM
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We stayed up that season for a variety of reasons, of which Benteke's goals were only a part. They key reason was sacking Pardew when we did and getting Allardyce, then the following reasons were the signings we made, especially Sakho who completely changed the dynamic of the team. We would have been relegated regardless of how many goals he scored.

Simply saying "Benteke's goals kept us up" is totally misleading and the total outlay on him of £55m, which it will be at the end of this season, was no way near worth it.
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  #3866  
Old 18-09-2019, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle96 View Post
We have paid £16M for Sorloth.
Benteke is on £100k/week, which is £5M/year. He signed a four-year deal, meaning our wages outlay will have been £20M for him, which is enough to cover the cost of Sorlothís transfer (just once, not 3x).

Also, you are forgetting the 15 league goals Benteke got in his first season, which arguably kept us up. How much is that worth to us? Sorloth has looked like a deer in headlights every minute he has played at this level.

Still, donít let facts get in the way of a good old Benteke rant. Boring
We didnít pay £16 mill. Where did you get that?
It was £6 mill with add-ons which rise to £9 million.Trabzonspor have taken over the contract and have repaid the £6 million.
Before people ask I work in support finance and I know someone in UEFA who deals with player transfers.
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  #3867  
Old 18-09-2019, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted_eagle View Post
We didnít pay £16 mill. Where did you get that?
It was £6 mill with add-ons which rise to £9 million.Trabzonspor have taken over the contract and have repaid the £6 million.
Before people ask I work in support finance and I know someone in UEFA who deals with player transfers.
If your source is correct then thatís a right result for us
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  #3868  
Old 18-09-2019, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by addicted_eagle View Post
We didnít pay £16 mill. Where did you get that?
It was £6 mill with add-ons which rise to £9 million.Trabzonspor have taken over the contract and have repaid the £6 million.
Before people ask I work in support finance and I know someone in UEFA who deals with player transfers.
I'm not saying you are wrong because I don't know. But another reliable and usually well informed poster on here has said we have indeed paid around £16m for Sorloth.

If Trabzonspor have taken over his contract and paid us £6m doesn't mean we didn't pay a big transfer fee for him too.
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  #3869  
Old 18-09-2019, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Rhino View Post
We stayed up that season for a variety of reasons, of which Benteke's goals were only a part. They key reason was sacking Pardew when we did and getting Allardyce, then the following reasons were the signings we made, especially Sakho who completely changed the dynamic of the team. We would have been relegated regardless of how many goals he scored.

Simply saying "Benteke's goals kept us up" is totally misleading and the total outlay on him of £55m, which it will be at the end of this season, was no way near worth it.
Which is precisely why he is a liability on two fronts. He is shot as a premier league player, in fact i think he would struggle in league 1 . But for what he is costing us, measured against what he is delivering, it is beyond doubt that sorloth would be the better option. At least he is finding the net and doesn't tear a whole in our finances to the extent that Benteke does. You cant get worse than a striker who isnt scoring, so even if sorloth doesnt come back finding the net, at least he isn't costing us a kings ransom for failing. Its a truly bizzare scenario and one we should not ever have found ourselves facing .
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  #3870  
Old 18-09-2019, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted_eagle View Post
We didn’t pay £16 mill. Where did you get that?
It was £6 mill with add-ons which rise to £9 million.Trabzonspor have taken over the contract and have repaid the £6 million.
Before people ask I work in support finance and I know someone in UEFA who deals with player transfers.
The loan to Trabzonspor lasts until the end of the 2020/21 season. According to transfermarkt they have paid a loan fee of £675k.

He is contracted to us until the end of the 2021/22 season.

If they had taken over the contract he would no longer be a Palace player. Also given the controversy over the fee Palace have never denied that it was £9m plus add-ons.
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Last edited by dave_who_ru; 18-09-2019 at 07:34 PM.
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  #3871  
Old 19-09-2019, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyTKid View Post
Mate I think we could go round in circles all night on this. I canít get my head around why you canít consider the possibility that Benteke has been a poor signing. Yes, he had one good season where we stayed up but we could have found a way to be successful without him. We had worse squads stay up (first season under Pauliís) plus we would have had £30m to spend elsewhere. I brought Hennessy into it as you so fixated on Bentekes 15 goals which you can not accept could have been found elsewhere by a combination of other players. Whether this means other players scoring or us conceding less. To me your logic is the same logic as saying Hennessy got 50+ saves that season and if we didnít have Hennessy we would have gone down as they would have been goals. Surely itís logical to say we would have got another goalkeeper and they could have saved those 50+ shots as well or they may have brought more confidence to the team and so the defence played better and there werenít as many shots? It canít just be Benteke scored 15 goals, there was no other way to stay up and no matter what we paid for him he is a good signing as we stayed up that season?
Of course I can accept that they could have come elsewhere, I said in my first post that ďthatís not how it worksĒ. Iíve not said he has been a good signing either.

Iím not fixated by any means, but you seem to be arguing all of my points based on something that didnít happen? Bentekes 15 goals were a massive part of us staying up and as I also said in one of my first posts, ďin isolationĒ

Saying because Benteke scores 15 goals, someone else simply could have, we could have signed better players that meant we got results elsewhere is purely guesswork? You are equally Ďfixatedí on ANYTHING we did differently being a success without anything factual to base it on? Those players you think we would have got instead could have failed? His replacement just as easily could have missed hatfuls? Those extra defenders to keep clean sheets could have scored own goals? You seem to be ignoring completely that whatever hypothetical you can make up might also hypothetically not have gone in our favour!

The simple fact is that Bentekeís 15 goals in season 1 went a massive way to securing our Top flight status and in that season his goals were invaluable. Since then heís been poor, not denying it, but to Only focus on the last 2 seasons ignoring the contribution in the first is wrong imo. Arguing with hypotheticals that will only positively alter the outcome is daft.

Playing the Hypotheticals game, Pardew would have got it all together in January and we would have won 15 out of our last 19 finishing 7th. Itís fine to say that because Pardew had 12 months where we were top 6 in the form tables, just as ďwe stayed up without Bentekes goals beforeĒ
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Old 19-09-2019, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Rhino View Post
We stayed up that season for a variety of reasons, of which Benteke's goals were only a part. They key reason was sacking Pardew when we did and getting Allardyce, then the following reasons were the signings we made, especially Sakho who completely changed the dynamic of the team. We would have been relegated regardless of how many goals he scored.

Simply saying "Benteke's goals kept us up" is totally misleading and the total outlay on him of £55m, which it will be at the end of this season, was no way near worth it.
Goals win games. Without goals, you go down.

Allardyce kept us up with what he did, so did the new signings, so did Bentekes 15 goals. Just as simply as saying ďwe would have been relegated regardless of how many goals he scoredĒ we would have been relegated if heíd not scored those 15 goals.

No heís not been worth the total outlay or his wages over the past 2 season for certain, but how much would you say those 15 goals were worth to us in season 1?
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  #3873  
Old 19-09-2019, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by GrayP41ace View Post
Am I going mad??

Of course we wouldn't have played with 10
Of course if we played without a keeper we would have got relegated

They wouldn't happen. They didn't happen.

Benteke scored 15 goals. This did happen.

Hypothetically taking Benteke out of that team means you now HAVE to guarantee those exact 15 goals/equivalent points gained from those goals, from elsewhere (his replacement or others in the team). That is impossible to prove, pure guesswork and arguing against a known fact?

The £30m and his wages for year 1 got us 15 goals and Premier League survival. That was worth the outlay that season. To argue it didn't because hypothetically someone else could have is a bit odd is it not?

His goal scoring has not been deserving of his wage since then, not denying it, but to argue he was not worth the money after season 1 because someone else could just as conceivably have done is surely wrong.

Only 9 players scored more goals than Benteke that season, to suggest we could have simply signed a replacement 15 goal striker is laughable, they're not 10 a penny.

Slimani was £30m that same season, scoring 7 goals. That input could have seen us relegated?

Not sure about the Hennessey reference tbh. His job was to stop goals being conceded and his mistakes sometimes led to some. Criticism of that seems logical? Benteke's job was to score goals and 15 goals suggests he did just that? Criticism of him actually scoring goals seems illogical? Criticism of him now he's not is fair do's. Never suggested it wasn't.
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Old 19-09-2019, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave_who_ru View Post
The loan to Trabzonspor lasts until the end of the 2020/21 season. According to transfermarkt they have paid a loan fee of £675k.

He is contracted to us until the end of the 2021/22 season.

If they had taken over the contract he would no longer be a Palace player. Also given the controversy over the fee Palace have never denied that it was £9m plus add-ons.
You really shouldn't use 'Transfermarkt' as any basis for truth - they've been found to be wildly incorrect on many many occasions previously
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Old 19-09-2019, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by addicted_eagle View Post
We didnít pay £16 mill. Where did you get that?
It was £6 mill with add-ons which rise to £9 million.Trabzonspor have taken over the contract and have repaid the £6 million.
Before people ask I work in support finance and I know someone in UEFA who deals with player transfers.
What?

If they've repaid £6 million that would presumably mean they've bought him.

That's the first I've heard of it.

You sure?
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Old 19-09-2019, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mcmean View Post
You really shouldn't use 'Transfermarkt' as any basis for truth - they've been found to be wildly incorrect on many many occasions previously
The loan fee is to an extent irrelevant but Transfermarkt is probably more accurate than the original claim that Trabzonspor has taken over his contract and paid us £6m.

Iím not sure any other site has loan fees on it and clearly they donít report all of them so I would suggest what they do report has some basis.
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  #3877  
Old 19-09-2019, 08:59 AM
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More likely they have an option to take over the contract. That is in line with what their Chairman said, that he wouldn't mind paying €6m if he keeps banging the goals in.
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Old 19-09-2019, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by dave_who_ru View Post
The loan fee is to an extent irrelevant but Transfermarkt is probably more accurate than the original claim that Trabzonspor has taken over his contract and paid us £6m.

I’m not sure any other site has loan fees on it and clearly they don’t report all of them so I would suggest what they do report has some basis.
On the first point, I don't think it was ever realistic they look over his contract. They'd pay his wages, and/or a percentage of - and would ahve paid us a loan fee too - and/or plus a reported £6 million fee agreed in advance for his transfer.

And on the basis point, I'm afraid not. Case in point - Lukaku went from Man U to Inter for £73/74 million, Transfermarkt have the fee as £58 million

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Old 19-09-2019, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by mcmean View Post
On the first point, I don't think it was ever realistic they look over his contract. They'd pay his wages, and/or a percentage of - and would ahve paid us a loan fee too - and/or plus a reported £6 million fee agreed in advance for his transfer.

And on the basis point, I'm afraid not. Case in point - Lukaku went from Man U to Inter for £73/74 million, Transfermarkt have the fee as £58 million

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That £58 million is all but correct tbf.

It was an inital 65 million Euros, the rest in add-ons.
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Old 19-09-2019, 11:04 AM
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