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  #261  
Old 11-09-2019, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Though we do need to start setting a precident that technology should not be utilised to render people 'poorer', but society as a whole richer. There are a few theoretical technologies coming down the line that could effectively be 'game changers' on a scale with industrialisation (AI, Genetic Engineering and 'Nanotechnologies').

If we approch these in the same way we did with industrialistation and automation, as a means of maximising profit, but not dealing with the reduction in work force, we'll face significant social turmoil.

The end result of such technologies should be to create a more leisured society, otherwise we tend to blunder into periods of massive social unrest caused by great disparity being unregulated.

Its vital we avoid doing to the working classes of the UK (and world) what has happened in the past with Automation, Off Shoring, Industrialisation etc.
I agree and the fact that technological advancements in the last 20 years (and huge ones at that) has seen more hours worked and less wages and austerity is very worrying.
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  #262  
Old 11-09-2019, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
This is an often used maxim, but its untrue, people are not motivated by self interest, but often choose self interest. Usually self interest prevails, because the clarity of reward vs risk is very evident.

However self interest decisions also include decisions typically made in the interest of group interest, rather than individuals themselves. for example, I won't make an decision that purely is in my interest, if it doesn't reflect the interest of those close to me (esp if its detrimental to them). This is probably the single biggest motivator in people - and of course it gets defined as self interest, because of the 'no action is truely alutristic' arguement (ie I choose a decision thats in my wifes interest, because fundamentally it benefits me to some degree).

Hence the problem of the self interest arguement, its a self fulfilling on, because its based in biological reductionalism (alturism), which is fine when you're talking about a species, but unreliable when talking about decisions made by individuals.
I would also add that if self interest is doing things for others because it makes you feel good then I donít really care if itís labelled altruistic or not, itís a good thing whatever the motivation.
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  #263  
Old 11-09-2019, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by chelmsfordeagle View Post
It is half an hour a week since 2009, 26 hours or three days of work in a year. I think that is quite a bit, especially considering the advances in technology in so many industries.
As someone who has always worked more than my conditioned hours, sometimes paid extra and sometimes not, no Iím not in a froth about the odd half hour stretched over a week.

When I was a line manager, if the company couldnít pay overtime I would have an understanding with my team that if they had to stay late to meet a deadline/emergency then Iíd be considerate when they wanted some time back (eg a long lunch or leave early another day). We rubbed along just fine.
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  #264  
Old 11-09-2019, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Pre-capitalist models relied on serfs and slaves. Wealth and power were no less desirable.
Thank heavens that enlightened modern man came up with the concept of "treats".
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  #265  
Old 11-09-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
I'm not sure all of history reflects this, notably pre-capitalist society concepts of profit and wealth in its own right was not as desirable as a singular moral and ethical justification (quite possibly down to the fact that there was a significant limit on what wealth could provide to an individual) - and the notion of collective greater self interest generally prevailed.

But since industrialisation thats definately been the case, as wealth and profit have become 'moral and ethical' justifications on an increasing basis, especially moving into the 20th centuary.

The good news will be that some of these technologies present a significant risk to the notion of scarcity (nanotechnology) and fundementally offer a means by which value would be rendered meaningless.
Living standards in the UK were no higher at the end of the Napoleonic Wars than they were in the early 1200s. If anything pre the industrial revolution it was more volatile than today because of the dependence on the local harvest.
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  #266  
Old 11-09-2019, 10:55 AM
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Last time I looked at the ONS stats in detail there were 2.7m adults in the UK in work who wanted more hours and 3.2m adults in work who wanted to work less. There are also over 1.3m unemployed and 8.6m adults aged 16-64 not in work, around 2m of whom would want work if the right job came along.
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  #267  
Old 11-09-2019, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
That's a fairly facile thing to say. I vote for many things that might financially hit me : ao I guess I might be contradicting your vast generalisation (another) that people are always and universally motivated by self-interest.


But I probably wouldn't be hit by it ; but due to higher employment costs I might well employ less people, and provide fewer job opportunities.
Most of the thread, for and against, including your posts (and mine) are a generalisation.

I don't think people are always motivated by self interest but I think it is a important factor.
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  #268  
Old 11-09-2019, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
This is an often used maxim, but its untrue, people are not motivated by self interest, but often choose self interest. Usually self interest prevails, because the clarity of reward vs risk is very evident.

However self interest decisions also include decisions typically made in the interest of group interest, rather than individuals themselves. for example, I won't make an decision that purely is in my interest, if it doesn't reflect the interest of those close to me (esp if its detrimental to them). This is probably the single biggest motivator in people - and of course it gets defined as self interest, because of the 'no action is truely alutristic' arguement (ie I choose a decision thats in my wifes interest, because fundamentally it benefits me to some degree).

Hence the problem of the self interest arguement, its a self fulfilling on, because its based in biological reductionalism (alturism), which is fine when you're talking about a species, but unreliable when talking about decisions made by individuals.
All this.
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  #269  
Old 11-09-2019, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
As someone who has always worked more than my conditioned hours, sometimes paid extra and sometimes not, no I’m not in a froth about the odd half hour stretched over a week.

When I was a line manager, if the company couldn’t pay overtime I would have an understanding with my team that if they had to stay late to meet a deadline/emergency then I’d be considerate when they wanted some time back (eg a long lunch or leave early another day). We rubbed along just fine.
I too have spent 20+ years working more than my contracted hours, always without overtime pay. And I also don't 'froth' (to quote you) about it. However, working 3 days more on average than 10 years ago is still quite a bit of time.
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  #270  
Old 11-09-2019, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Same problem with many businesses. Fixed costs would make a four day week completely unviable ; effectively losing a fifth of output/income.

What would be the compelling reason to think this is a good idea?
An example of one of your generalisations.
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  #271  
Old 11-09-2019, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by chelmsfordeagle View Post
I too have spent 20+ years working more than my contracted hours, always without overtime pay. And I also don't 'froth' (to quote you) about it. However, working 3 days more on average than 10 years ago is still quite a bit of time.
Too often the status quo is set by other workers rather than standing together and being strong they are weak individually. Why should anyone work for free?

I was taught a way of thinking once which has guided me in many work situations, I ask myself 'is it reasonable'.

If someone is asking for an hour due to a deadline and are in a tight spot, and I either like them or value the goal then yes no problem, but if the result of the hour is due to no good reason other than someone else's incompetence or it's just an expectation (sometimes just because everyone else does it) then take issue and deem it not reasonable.

These can be applied to the 5 day week. Why do we all have to work 5 days rather than 4? It's a social construct and I get it people get a sense of worth by working hard and the self-valuation/identity they get from their jobs, but after we are dead and in the ground does it really matter if we spent more hours in the office?
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  #272  
Old 11-09-2019, 01:41 PM
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. Why do we all have to work 5 days rather than 4?
Because people want to get paid 25% more?
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  #273  
Old 11-09-2019, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MFBias View Post
Too often the status quo is set by other workers rather than standing together and being strong they are weak individually. Why should anyone work for free?

I was taught a way of thinking once which has guided me in many work situations, I ask myself 'is it reasonable'.

If someone is asking for an hour due to a deadline and are in a tight spot, and I either like them or value the goal then yes no problem, but if the result of the hour is due to no good reason other than someone else's incompetence or it's just an expectation (sometimes just because everyone else does it) then take issue and deem it not reasonable.

These can be applied to the 5 day week. Why do we all have to work 5 days rather than 4? It's a social construct and I get it people get a sense of worth by working hard and the self-valuation/identity they get from their jobs, but after we are dead and in the ground does it really matter if we spent more hours in the office?
We donít Ďall have to work 5 days rather than 4í.

There are plenty of roles and companies that donít operate that way. If thatís what you want as a high priority, find that company or career path.
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  #274  
Old 11-09-2019, 01:50 PM
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Remember the days of 15% mortgage rates? I don't remember many people asking for less hours in those days.
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  #275  
Old 11-09-2019, 03:29 PM
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We donít Ďall have to work 5 days rather than 4í.

There are plenty of roles and companies that donít operate that way. If thatís what you want as a high priority, find that company or career path.
Standard practice is 9 to 5 Monday through Friday with weekends off.

My career isn't that but that is the base standard working time for people in Britain. Im talking about evaluating that base which idea for a 4 day week is proposing, not just individuals choosing their jobs.
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  #276  
Old 11-09-2019, 04:07 PM
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Standard practice is 9 to 5 Monday through Friday with weekends off.

My career isn't that but that is the base standard working time for people in Britain. Im talking about evaluating that base which idea for a 4 day week is proposing, not just individuals choosing their jobs.
Well, thatís not what you said.

You wrote Ďwhy do we ALL have to work a 5 day weekí.

Some of my jobs have actually been for companies that operate 7 days a week, with weekends being the busiest time. There are loads of jobs out there that are not 9-5 weekday only. Think of catering, emergency services, retail, gyms, public transport, construction, care services, hotels.....even good olí Palace!
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  #277  
Old 11-09-2019, 08:17 PM
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Well, that’s not what you said.

You wrote ‘why do we ALL have to work a 5 day week’.

Some of my jobs have actually been for companies that operate 7 days a week, with weekends being the busiest time. There are loads of jobs out there that are not 9-5 weekday only. Think of catering, emergency services, retail, gyms, public transport, construction, care services, hotels.....even good ol’ Palace!
Well you can focus on what you thought it to mean or by what I later explained.

The norm is 5 days a week and mainly between Mon-Fri. I don’t work that myself as Im freelance and am at the will of my employer but I still said ‘we’ talking about the wider society. Yes there alot of jobs that are not in the structure but the majority are and the talking point is why does it have to be 5 days over a 7 day cycle?

All the jobs you describe to me as if I never considered people worked past 5pm on a Friday, are all jobs that could be shift work where staff could cover any hour, but within that week do people have to fulfil 5 days a week as a base, couldn’t it be 4?
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  #278  
Old 12-09-2019, 12:56 AM
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  #279  
Old 12-09-2019, 03:52 AM
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Scandalous?
The problem with this graph is that it is full time employees. In this age of gig economies that is misrepresentative of the way approximately 10% million of UK adults work now. I canít see any stats on gig economy working hours or employment breakdown, but if a sizeable number of fully employed people were picking up any additional employment for Uber or Deliveroo or whomever, then that graph is well off.
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Old 12-09-2019, 06:24 AM
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Well you can focus on what you thought it to mean or by what I later explained.

The norm is 5 days a week and mainly between Mon-Fri. I donít work that myself as Im freelance and am at the will of my employer but I still said Ďweí talking about the wider society. Yes there alot of jobs that are not in the structure but the majority are and the talking point is why does it have to be 5 days over a 7 day cycle?

All the jobs you describe to me as if I never considered people worked past 5pm on a Friday, are all jobs that could be shift work where staff could cover any hour, but within that week do people have to fulfil 5 days a week as a base, couldnít it be 4?
Itís not a matter of me focusing on what I Ďthought it to meaní, itís what you wrote...itís there in black and white in your post.

You make sweeping statements that are untrue.

A quick google reveals a YouGov survey from last year that advises that less than 10% now work the traditional 9-5 hours which you say are the standard for the majority. Part of that reduction for white collar workers, they advise, is due to flexi and working from home, which in many cases has been enabled by tech.
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