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  #141  
Old 09-09-2019, 03:59 PM
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Well no because the government could help small businesses.
You mean £££bns.


You don't think there are other priorities?
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  #142  
Old 09-09-2019, 04:01 PM
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jmemour came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjmemour came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjmemour came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjmemour came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjmemour came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjmemour came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjmemour came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjmemour came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjmemour came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjmemour came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietjmemour came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
The world is literally going the opposite way to this kind of legislation. People, especially those under 30, are looking for the most flexible work terms possible. Remote jobs are becoming more and more popular and they mean you can work when you want and where you want providing the job gets done. In 20 years' time this will be far more the norm than it is now, you cannot run a country trying to have a one size fits all method to employment law, it's bonkers.
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  #143  
Old 09-09-2019, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Well no because the government could help small businesses.

As said above surly this can’t be the pinnacle of human development and leisure time?
Unless the government are prepared to give me 20% of my wage bill (or reduce what we give them by the same) then it wouldn't work.

If you saw our wage bill and multiplied that across the tens of thousands of small businesses you would agree it wouldn't work especially as governments change and you can bet that that even in the very remote circumstances a government agreed to do that - they next one would take it away.

It probably isn't the pinnacle - robotics and AI probably will be the next pinnacle when they really get going and society will either massively benefit from that or if Rees Mogg is in charge rich people will get richer and we will all have a lot of leisure time but bugger all money.

Last edited by Hpalace; 09-09-2019 at 04:37 PM.
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  #144  
Old 09-09-2019, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Thatís what happens with work that has no weak unions, combined with Tory anti union laws.

You end up working long hours and have loads of quality family and social time taken away. Itís grim.

Dunno about whinging but itís better to stand up to that than be a doormat. There are also lots of people, for very good reasons, that canít do that amount of hours.

The tories really love a doornat worker who says donít whinge and just put up with it.
You've hit the nail on the thumb again. That's contracting, what would be the point of more down time away from home.

Of course at some point the contract will end and he has the choice of when he take the next contract job.
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  #145  
Old 09-09-2019, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Which is why I said when it does they will will need to employ more people and take less profit.
Why would anyone bother to set up a company or buy shares in it. This is pure 70's, profit is a dirty word.
Without the profit motive companies just collapse, pure 1970's Labour dogma.
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  #146  
Old 09-09-2019, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Well no because the government could help small businesses.

As said above surly this canít be the pinnacle of human development and leisure time?
Hopefully they could help them pay their business rates, corp tax etc...Ö., oh hold on.
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  #147  
Old 09-09-2019, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jmemour View Post
The world is literally going the opposite way to this kind of legislation. People, especially those under 30, are looking for the most flexible work terms possible. Remote jobs are becoming more and more popular and they mean you can work when you want and where you want providing the job gets done. In 20 years' time this will be far more the norm than it is now, you cannot run a country trying to have a one size fits all method to employment law, it's bonkers.
No one is disagreeing there can be other working practices, particularly for white collar workers.

But there are numerous sectors that cannot employ staff to work remotely, as their presence is fundamental to the job.
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  #148  
Old 09-09-2019, 06:21 PM
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Well yes. If middle class office workers get more locational and hours flexibility whilst others don't you can understand why so many want white collar jobs. How do you get people to do jobs where you have to be on site and work constantly such as nurses, teachers, shop staff, care workers, delivery drivers, those on production lines etc? They can't just go down to 4 days and then tell everyone they aren't doing any less than when they did 5 days.
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  #149  
Old 09-09-2019, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Well yes. If middle class office workers get more locational and hours flexibility whilst others don't you can understand why so many want white collar jobs. .
That's a very dated view ; straight from The Likely Lads.
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  #150  
Old 09-09-2019, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Well yes. If middle class office workers get more locational and hours flexibility whilst others don't you can understand why so many want white collar jobs. How do you get people to do jobs where you have to be on site and work constantly such as nurses, teachers, shop staff, care workers, delivery drivers, those on production lines etc? They can't just go down to 4 days and then tell everyone they aren't doing any less than when they did 5 days.
Shift work. It could be any 4 days of the week.
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  #151  
Old 09-09-2019, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Well yes. If middle class office workers get more locational and hours flexibility whilst others don't you can understand why so many want white collar jobs. How do you get people to do jobs where you have to be on site and work constantly such as nurses, teachers, shop staff, care workers, delivery drivers, those on production lines etc? They can't just go down to 4 days and then tell everyone they aren't doing any less than when they did 5 days.
But they can do less, it just means employing more people.

Others above have asked if it is worth spending billions to reduce the working week. I think it definitely is. As said just the wealthiest 1000 have increased by about 500 billion in the last decade.

Itís an indictment that our society has made such huge technological advances, yet working weeks have increased in the last decade.

Leisure time is one of the most precious things we have.
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  #152  
Old 09-09-2019, 07:31 PM
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But they can do less, it just means employing more people.

That's what the French said. There was no increase in employment.
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  #153  
Old 09-09-2019, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MFBias View Post
Shift work. It could be any 4 days of the week.
Shift work is only appropriate if it matches the needs of the job.
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  #154  
Old 09-09-2019, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
That's what the French said. There was no increase in employment.
Did they do a four day week?

The only thing I can find is a limit of 35 hours a week and there donít seem to be negative effects.
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  #155  
Old 09-09-2019, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Did they do a four day week?

The only thing I can find is a limit of 35 hours a week and there don’t seem to be negative effects.
The main negative effects were counter-intuitively an actual increase in shift work hours ; and also (related to that) a reluctance of firms to hire people because of the extra costs, which is one of the reasons why 1 in 5 French young people are unemployed.
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  #156  
Old 09-09-2019, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
The main negative effects were counter-intuitively an actual increase in shift work hours ; and also (related to that) a reluctance of firms to hire people because of the extra costs, which is one of the reasons why 1 in 5 French young people are unemployed.
There seems to be quite a lot of research saying both the positives and negatives but my point was they didnít try for a four day week.

I have no doubt there will be some negatives but surely, with all the advances in technology, that should be used to shorten the working week. Instead itís gone up.
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  #157  
Old 09-09-2019, 08:06 PM
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Shift work is only appropriate if it matches the needs of the job.
Majority of jobs could fit it though, it doesn't have to be every job but the basis for most companies to set their weeks.
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  #158  
Old 10-09-2019, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
There seems to be quite a lot of research saying both the positives and negatives but my point was they didnít try for a four day week.

I have no doubt there will be some negatives but surely, with all the advances in technology, that should be used to shorten the working week. Instead itís gone up.
It would take 15/20 years to assess if a 4 day week works or not. As I said before, nearly all the arguments against a 4 day week were the same arguments used when a 6 day working week was reduced to 5 1/2 days, and 5 1/2 days to 5. Of course there will be issues, there will be costs and there will be some industries that need more help to transition but it is a health benefit to the nation, gives people more time with their kids, more time to pursue their interests and a whole raft of other social benefits that morally should outweigh any negatives.
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  #159  
Old 10-09-2019, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by chelmsfordeagle View Post
It would take 15/20 years to assess if a 4 day week works or not. As I said before, nearly all the arguments against a 4 day week were the same arguments used when a 6 day working week was reduced to 5 1/2 days, and 5 1/2 days to 5. Of course there will be issues, there will be costs and there will be some industries that need more help to transition but it is a health benefit to the nation, gives people more time with their kids, more time to pursue their interests and a whole raft of other social benefits that morally should outweigh any negatives.
I donít recall the use of these arguments. Can you point me in the direction of a link, not least so we can agree the time you are talking about.
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Old 10-09-2019, 07:06 AM
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There is confused thinking in this thread with some posters linking 2 different working practices together.

Doing a shift pattern that involves condensing your hours to 4 days means that you ARE working the full 40 hour week or more (eg it might be 10-12 hours per day, 4 days). This matches the working needs of the company and can often be more effective for both the company and the employee.

Others are extolling a 4-day week, ie working 4x 8 hours per day. This would therefore mean reducing working hours by 20%, but not salary. It is this that many of us are saying is not affordable.
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