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  #201  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:20 AM
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It happened on Election Day... there were videos of groups beaten up people who voted trump... I remember one Particularly nasty video of a girl getting punched. This isn’t how you win... it’s playing right in to their hands.

The left seem to have been dragged down to the rights level recently... it’s no surprise that the worst the left get the more we get Brexit/Trump/Boris.
Extreme behaviour begets extreme behaviour.
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  #202  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:21 AM
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Extreme behaviour begets extreme behaviour.

Absolutely... shows how silly we are.
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  #203  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:33 AM
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I find it so hard to watch... also the videos of rioters kicking already unconscious people in the head... I canít understand it.

They are playing in to 2A/NRA/Trumps hands... theyíre fukkin ***** idiots
Because rioting and violence are not rational or logical behaviours. This isn't about people being 'reasonable' its about the outlet of bottled up anger, resentment, frustration and social rage. As such, its not directed, but effectively becomes a rage expressed against society.

Its not about George Floyd anymore, thats the spark - this is the consequence of failing to respond to legitimate and legal concerns about police brutality and its acceptance for political convenience. But it isn't just that, its about all of the frustration and social unrest, percieved and real, that hasn't been dealt with in the US. Its as much about fear and anger, as events.

Its no more rational than the 'fear' utilised as a defence by the police and 'white people' that serves as an accepted justification for unreasonable force, maybe the only difference being that we're encouraged to rationalise one as 'acceptable' and the other is starkly horrific.

This is the outcome of what happens when you fail to deal with legitimate issues in society. Its not new, the issue of police and state violence used of unreasonable force isn't new, it dates back throughout the the last centuary, whether it was the civil rights movement of the 50s, Kent State, the Watts Riots, Rodney King and so many others.

Failure to deal with the problem of the Police in the US, results periodically in 'erratic and chaotic' uprisings against a society that is unjust.
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  #204  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:44 AM
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Does anyone have any evidence I can read.. or a study that supports Blacks being killed in greater number than whites.

Itís hard to find any kind of info that is biased
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  #205  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:51 AM
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  #206  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:54 AM
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Does anyone have any evidence I can read.. or a study that supports Blacks being killed in greater number than whites.

Itís hard to find any kind of info that is biased
Since January 01, 2015, 4,728 people have died in police shootings and around half, 2,385, were white. 1,252 were black, 877 were Hispanic and 214 were from other racial groups. As a share of the population, however, things are very different. Black Americans account for less than 13% of the U.S. population but the rate at which they are shot and killed by police is more than twice as high as the rate for white Americans.


Stats used for the per million
White 2385 deaths, 197 million population
Black 1252 deaths, 42 million population
Hispanic 877 deaths, 39 million population
Other 214 deaths, 49 million population

It's probably racist to suggest that Korean's don't get shot by the police very often as they're more likely to not get arrested or resist if they do?
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  #207  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:01 AM
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  #208  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by eddieskyclad View Post
Since January 01, 2015, 4,728 people have died in police shootings and around half, 2,385, were white. 1,252 were black, 877 were Hispanic and 214 were from other racial groups. As a share of the population, however, things are very different. Black Americans account for less than 13% of the U.S. population but the rate at which they are shot and killed by police is more than twice as high as the rate for white Americans.





Stats used for the per million

White 2385 deaths, 197 million population

Black 1252 deaths, 42 million population

Hispanic 877 deaths, 39 million population

Other 214 deaths, 49 million population



It's probably racist to suggest that Korean's don't get shot by the police very often as they're more likely to not get arrested or resist if they do?

Certainly seems unbalanced. Does it take in to account criminal activity? If a black person is 5x more likely to commit murder... would this explain the disparity?
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  #209  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:09 AM
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Does anyone have any evidence I can read.. or a study that supports Blacks being killed in greater number than whites.

Itís hard to find any kind of info that is biased
Interestingly, the evidence of excessive force being justified isn't just a black thing, the use and acceptance of excessive force by the police and authorities affects poor white areas as well. Its not quite the same level, but there close enough to demostrate the same problem exists.

The difference largely is in terms of the capacity to express injustice in the US, on a historical basis. Poor white communities tend to have rather limited representation, where as black society is politically and in terms of social justice well organised, supported and understood (simply really on the basis of having set up political movements to oppose outright racist laws and segregation. There is no equivilent of NACCAP etc for the poor whites, and no history of leadership in terms of social justice either.

The failure of white Americans, notably the working class to be represented in a way that they might be in the UK and Europe, is probably more down to the degree to which unions in the US differ, and how working class movements have been incorrectly identified as socialist or communist, and the adoption of the poor whites towards movements within Republican circles like the Christian Right (where as Black Christian groups have a long history of fighting against injustice against their members - White Christian organisations tend to be socially supportive, rather than representing the interest of members).

Its interesting, that among those rioting are not just far left supporters, but apparently also people who maybe more identify along far right grounds. The assumption that they're agent provocotuers or on the side of the police may well be unfounded - The far right draw a lot of support from poor, white areas - which experience many of the same issues that poor black areas experience other than the racism.

The issue of race, and its history, is what makes Black America very capable at expressing and communicating issues of social injustice, because they've generally been politically active and well supported for decades, and garned a lot of respect and support among both democrats, some republicans and most importantly liberal movements and organisations, many of whom grew out of those movements initially.

Poor white people, don't have anywhere near the same level of voice because they've never effectively organised and where they have, these tended to have been co-opted towards 'support of a right wing authoritarian agenda of justification and division' rather than an actual social justice movement.

Traditionally, upper working class and above in the US, even among liberals and democrats, tend to regard social mobility as a means of breaking away from roots - Where in among Black Upper Working classes and above, the tendency has been to indentify that there is a systemic problems in the black community that prevent social mobility.

Racism and its opposition has provided Black America, with an effective and politically capable, if not necessarily strong in terms of actual representation, means of opposing social injustice and a support system outside of black America around that.

There is very much a reason why Neo-Nazis, The Klan White Supremists, the Christian Right Evangelicals targets poor white America, its their base. The problem is more that its a relationship of exploitation towards empowerment of individuals and the movement, rather than confrontation of social injustice.

Poor White America needs something like the UK trade union movement. Because for them, its not a racial injustice issue, but an issue of class injustice and in the US, thats something barely considered.
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  #210  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:13 AM
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Certainly seems unbalanced. Does it take in to account criminal activity? If a black person is 5x more likely to commit murder... would this explain the disparity?
A black person is 5 times more likely to be convicted for murder...
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  #211  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:16 AM
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Adjusted for the homicide rate, whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police,Ē

I donít doubt thereís problems in the States.... I donít doubt Black people get the shitty end of the stick more often than whites... I just get the feeling that the argument put forward by the media is too simplistic... looking at studies it seems blacks get physically assaulted by police more than whites, but whites are more likely to be shot.

My view itís more poverty than colour... and the 1% would probably prefer the 99% to fight each other rather than them.

(I could be wrong, I usually am)
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  #212  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:17 AM
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A black person is 5 times more likely to be convicted for murder...
Something disturbing about the original line of enquiry here.
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  #213  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:18 AM
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Something disturbing about the original line of enquiry here.

?
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Old 01-06-2020, 09:18 AM
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Adjusted for the homicide rate, whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police,Ē

I donít doubt thereís problems in the States.... I donít doubt Black people get the shitty end of the stick more often than whites... I just get the feeling that the argument put forward by the media is too simplistic... looking at studies it seems blacks get physically assaulted by police more than whites, but whites are more likely to be shot.

My view itís more poverty than colour... and the 1% would probably prefer the 99% to fight each other rather than them.

(I could be wrong, I usually am)
Whoís more likely to be born in to poverty in the US? (And the UK?)
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  #215  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:21 AM
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Whoís more likely to be born in to poverty in the US? (And the UK?)

Yes... thatís where I think we should be going.

I find it strange that people donít see this.
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  #216  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mushroom View Post
Adjusted for the homicide rate, whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police,Ē

I donít doubt thereís problems in the States.... I donít doubt Black people get the shitty end of the stick more often than whites... I just get the feeling that the argument put forward by the media is too simplistic... looking at studies it seems blacks get physically assaulted by police more than whites, but whites are more likely to be shot.

My view itís more poverty than colour... and the 1% would probably prefer the 99% to fight each other rather than them.

(I could be wrong, I usually am)
I am a little confused. The stats clearly show that Blacks are shot at more by the police than whites by head of population (by 250%).
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  #217  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:23 AM
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Certainly seems unbalanced. Does it take in to account criminal activity? If a black person is 5x more likely to commit murder... would this explain the disparity?
Not really. A criminal activity would itself be problematic to define, given that the American Criminal System is incredibly bias along both class and racial grounds.

What should really be concerning politically is just how high those figures actually are. The highest murder rate in the US in 2017 was Louisana with a murder rate of 14.4 per 100,000 people.

Given that the total of those killed, in total, by the police is rougly 10 per 100,000 the US has a higher rate of people killed by the police as a national average than the murder rate in all but six states of the US (obviously this isn't a reliable source, as its not proper research, just using figures provided above and To view the link you have to Register or Login

Bearing in mind that approximately just over 3 times as many people are shot killed by the police, as an national average, than are murdered in New York state (murder rate is approx 3 per 100,000)
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  #218  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:35 AM
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I am a little confused. The stats clearly show that Blacks are shot at more by the police than whites by head of population (by 250%).
They're arguing that because black people cause more murders they should actually be shot more than they are. Which of course doesnt take into account that they are convicted of murder more than white people which in itself doesnt take into account the fact that this is because of a biased justice system rather than anything else.
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  #219  
Old 01-06-2020, 09:37 AM
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I am a little confused. The stats clearly show that Blacks are shot at more by the police than whites by head of population (by 250%).

I think the study is taking in to account the fact that police will interact with people who are willing or trying to kill other people... but Dogstar has debunked this by saying itís hard to define criminal activity
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Old 01-06-2020, 09:38 AM
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I am a little confused. The stats clearly show that Blacks are shot at more by the police than whites by head of population (by 250%).

Double post
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