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  #121  
Old 31-05-2020, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by wavey View Post
Arguably improved, ĎThe War on Drugsí is mostly over for instance and there are now many more POC in positions of power and the relative educational achievements of African Americans are vastly improved compared to the 60ís - but there are still huge disparities in wealth, employment, justice and health between black and brown people and white.

The problems are far reaching and multiple, institutionalized racism, red lining, poverty traps, access to education/healthcare, voter suppression, justice/incarnation and even a two term black president made much of difference.

Thereís also the failure of good hearted white people (like myself) to make racism more of an issue both at the ballot box and in day to day life. Itís out of sight out of mind sadly - until moments like recent events when people leap into action with meaningful Facebook posts.

For me itís the failure of progressive cities to get handle on things that strikes home. Take Minneapolis, my wifeís home town. A city populated with kind, polite well educated mid-westerners. It has some of the best healthcare in the country and people are progressive and liberal. But it has a very marginalized Somali population and itís police force has multiple instances of police brutality towards blacks in particular. When a city like Minneapolis has a problems then you know the problem countrywide is huge.
Cheers Wavey.

So other than the initial outpouring of disgust and anger on FB do you think what has happened will get more white people into taking more affirmative action particularly in rooting out institutionalised racism, particularly (but not solely) in the police force?
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  #122  
Old 31-05-2020, 02:05 PM
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Empathy?
They are going to be busy demonstrating if that becomes a habit.
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  #123  
Old 31-05-2020, 02:19 PM
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So back to George Floyd - it's not received a lot of coverage and the family are challenging it but the autopsy specifically found no evidence of strangulation or asphyxiation and instead concluded that he died from a combination of heart disease and intoxicants.

Think it will be tough to make the murder charge stick. Manslaughter maybe but I'm not even sure that's locked in. EDIT: oh 3rd degree murder is basically a manslaughter charge?


Meanwhile protest has turned into riot.
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  #124  
Old 31-05-2020, 02:25 PM
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  #125  
Old 31-05-2020, 02:26 PM
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So back to George Floyd - it's not received a lot of coverage and the family are challenging it but the autopsy specifically found no evidence of strangulation or asphyxiation and instead concluded that he died from a combination of heart disease and intoxicants.
You would have to guess, even if the autopsy is genuine and correct it will simply not be believed and will actually add fuel to the fire.

It is what happens when you play fast and loose with the truth.

However there is no way that was a legitimate restraining technique by that officer, so whether a charge leads to a prosecution or not, it surely justifies him losing his job.
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  #126  
Old 31-05-2020, 02:27 PM
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You would have to guess, even if the autopsy is genuine and correct it will simply not be believed and will actually add fuel to the fire.

It is what happens when you play fast and loose with the truth.

However there is no way that was a legitimate restraining technique by that officer, so whether a charge leads to a prosecution or not, it surely justifies him losing his job.
Yeah I'm with you on that. It's not going to go away anytime soon and the trial might spike things again.
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  #127  
Old 31-05-2020, 02:44 PM
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Cheers Wavey.

So other than the initial outpouring of disgust and anger on FB do you think what has happened will get more white people into taking more affirmative action particularly in rooting out institutionalised racism, particularly (but not solely) in the police force?
I think it's extremely difficult, especially with the current administration. The problem needs to be tackled from the top, nationally with Federal leadership and policies, but also on local level, precinct by precinct, neighborhood by neighborhood. The protests raise awareness but what can you actually do?

I think action has to start with the criminal justice system. In my mind, the 'blue wall of silence' is one of the biggest problems - cops keeping closed lipped about their partners for fear of retribution.

For instance, there is/was a big problem in NYC with quotas - cops were forced to issue a certain number of tickets each day and it became apparent that tickets were issued unfairly to POC. A small group of cops spoke out about it and ended up pitting themselves against the NYPD - right up to the police commissioner. If memory serves they received death threats from other cops for blowing the whistle. There's an excellent podcast about the story which I'll look for. Just one example of how racism perpetuates in the police force and why it's so difficult to root out.

Here's a brief article about it. It was a long running story...

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Can't find the podcast, but looks like they turned it into a doc...

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Stopping the prejudiced targeting of blacks and latinos would at least break one of the racist cycles that destroys lives, and might start emptying out the prisons of innocent and non-violent people locked up for long periods on petty transgressions.
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  #128  
Old 31-05-2020, 02:48 PM
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Why are Brits demonstrating about the police force in the USA?
Because it's certainly about more than just that - to say it's a demonstration simply about police in the USA is reductionist in the extreme.

It's about institutionalised racism in a country that we quite often defer to politically and, indeed, revere in many ways. Their president, who has so often defended white supremacists and, on this occasion, threatened protesters with death, received a full state visit not that long ago.

Tacit consent and all that.
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  #129  
Old 31-05-2020, 02:51 PM
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For me it’s the failure of progressive cities to get handle on things that strikes home. Take Minneapolis, my wife’s home town. A city populated with kind, polite well educated mid-westerners. It has some of the best healthcare in the country and people are progressive and liberal. But it has a very marginalized Somali population and it’s police force has multiple instances of police brutality towards blacks in particular. When a city like Minneapolis has a problems then you know the problem countrywide is huge.
From what I’ve heard and seen, though I’m sure segregation is a problem all over the US, down south in parts of Mississippi or Tennessee for instance, in many ways it’s like the 60s haven’t left. Black kids may be allowed to mix with white kids in school, but in many cases they don’t as there’s distinctly white communities and black communities, with schools for each one, and naturally different law enforcement for each one. In general, just a lack of mixing which makes the parts of London or the UK which people moan about being segregated look like close knit communities, white black and brown in harmony.

Am I far wrong?

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  #130  
Old 31-05-2020, 02:51 PM
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So back to George Floyd - it's not received a lot of coverage and the family are challenging it but the autopsy specifically found no evidence of strangulation or asphyxiation and instead concluded that he died from a combination of heart disease and intoxicants.

Think it will be tough to make the murder charge stick. Manslaughter maybe but I'm not even sure that's locked in. EDIT: oh 3rd degree murder is basically a manslaughter charge?


Meanwhile protest has turned into riot.
Intoxicants and underlying conditions seems all too common an explanation as far as BAME in America mysteriously dying whilst in the presence of police officers, though. Along with 'he had a weapon' or 'I was afraid for my life' these tropes get trotted out again and again and again.

I'm pretty sure you can have heart disease and be a bit pissed without dying - add an unnecessary knee on the neck for eight minutes though and bingo - one less black man for the middle classes to worry about.
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  #131  
Old 31-05-2020, 02:52 PM
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  #132  
Old 31-05-2020, 02:52 PM
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lol total bollocks.

They tried the peaceful approach, nothing changed

Its not bollocks at all, they got called sons of bitches

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  #133  
Old 31-05-2020, 02:55 PM
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So back to George Floyd - it's not received a lot of coverage and the family are challenging it but the autopsy specifically found no evidence of strangulation or asphyxiation and instead concluded that he died from a combination of heart disease and intoxicants.

Think it will be tough to make the murder charge stick. Manslaughter maybe but I'm not even sure that's locked in. EDIT: oh 3rd degree murder is basically a manslaughter charge?


Meanwhile protest has turned into riot.

Just a coincidence he had a 250lb man kneeling on him restricting his airway at the time eh
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  #134  
Old 31-05-2020, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by eddieskyclad View Post
So back to George Floyd - it's not received a lot of coverage and the family are challenging it but the autopsy specifically found no evidence of strangulation or asphyxiation and instead concluded that he died from a combination of heart disease and intoxicants.

Think it will be tough to make the murder charge stick. Manslaughter maybe but I'm not even sure that's locked in. EDIT: oh 3rd degree murder is basically a manslaughter charge?


Meanwhile protest has turned into riot.
The intoxicants claim is very suss. The prosecutor listed 'potential intoxicants'. Potential? Easy to test for drugs and alcohol - so what are the 'potential' chemicals they are referring to? Why didn't they test for them and how can these unknowns have contributed to his death?
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  #135  
Old 31-05-2020, 02:59 PM
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From what Iíve heard and seen, though Iím sure segregation is a problem all over the US, down south in parts of Mississippi or Tennessee for instance, in many ways itís like the 60s havenít left. Black kids may be allowed to mix with white kids in school, but in many cases they donít as thereís distinctly white communities and black communities, with schools for each one. In general, just a lack of mixing which makes the parts of London or the UK which people moan about being segregated look like close knit communities, white black and brown in harmony.

Am I far wrong?
Little anecdote for you:

When me and the Mrs were travelling up the East coast about five years ago we found ourselves in Raleigh, North Carolina and fancying seeing a film.

Did the usual tourist bit and checked yelp to find two cinemas at two malls. One had raving reviews whilst the other had review after review along the lines of 'I don't feel safe going there' and 'I'd never go here - far too dangerous'.

Had a sneaking suspicion so thought I'd go and check it out. Of course it wasn't dangerous at all - just the mall that the local black community frequented. In fact everyone we spoke to while shopping and eating there was absolutely lovely - white, middle class Americans just cannot help but feel unsafe when there's black folk about.

I make you absolutely right - I'm pretty ignorant of what it's like up North but London is metropolitan heaven compared to what I've seen in the US in terms of segregation, which still exists in everything but law in most places in the South.
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  #136  
Old 31-05-2020, 03:05 PM
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From what Iíve heard and seen, though Iím sure segregation is a problem all over the US, down south in parts of Mississippi or Tennessee for instance, in many ways itís like the 60s havenít left. Black kids may be allowed to mix with white kids in school, but in many cases they donít as thereís distinctly white communities and black communities, with schools for each one, and naturally different law enforcement for each one. In general, just a lack of mixing which makes the parts of London or the UK which people moan about being segregated look like close knit communities, white black and brown in harmony.

Am I far wrong?
I can't really speak to the South as I have spent little time below the mason dixon line. Kicked around NOLA a bit and I know race problems are far reaching there.

Obviously the old allegiances of the civil war run deep, you still see confederation flags and look the battles over civil war statues. I'm pretty sure your point stands.

That black and white communities live apart is pretty much true for the whole country.
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Old 31-05-2020, 03:07 PM
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They tried the peaceful approach, nothing changed

Its not bollocks at all, they got called sons of bitches

Look at the highlighted part of the comment ffs

I wasn't referring to peaceful protests at all. I was talking about the notion that being called a SoB is enough to make some start burning things down.
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  #138  
Old 31-05-2020, 03:09 PM
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Little anecdote for you:

When me and the Mrs were travelling up the East coast about five years ago we found ourselves in Raleigh, North Carolina and fancying seeing a film.

Did the usual tourist bit and checked yelp to find two cinemas at two malls. One had raving reviews whilst the other had review after review along the lines of 'I don't feel safe going there' and 'I'd never go here - far too dangerous'.

Had a sneaking suspicion so thought I'd go and check it out. Of course it wasn't dangerous at all - just the mall that the local black community frequented. In fact everyone we spoke to while shopping and eating there was absolutely lovely - white, middle class Americans just cannot help but feel unsafe when there's black folk about.

I make you absolutely right - I'm pretty ignorant of what it's like up North but London is metropolitan heaven compared to what I've seen in the US in terms of segregation, which still exists in everything but law in most places in the South.
Cheers for that.

Sounds like my experiences of South Carolina and Georgia, absolutely beautiful places which I’d love to go back to. Was too young at the time (about 11) to know what racial segregation was, but I noticed the difference between black and white areas in a way that never struck me about back home in south London, about as diverse as the UK gets.
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Old 31-05-2020, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by wavey View Post
I think it's extremely difficult, especially with the current administration. The problem needs to be tackled from the top, nationally with Federal leadership and policies, but also on local level, precinct by precinct, neighborhood by neighborhood. The protests raise awareness but what can you actually do?

I think action has to start with the criminal justice system. In my mind, the 'blue wall of silence' is one of the biggest problems - cops keeping closed lipped about their partners for fear of retribution.

For instance, there is/was a big problem in NYC with quotas - cops were forced to issue a certain number of tickets each day and it became apparent that tickets were issued unfairly to POC. A small group of cops spoke out about it and ended up pitting themselves against the NYPD - right up to the police commissioner. If memory serves they received death threats from other cops for blowing the whistle. There's an excellent podcast about the story which I'll look for. Just one example of how racism perpetuates in the police force and why it's so difficult to root out.

Here's a brief article about it. It was a long running story...

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Can't find the podcast, but looks like they turned it into a doc...

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Stopping the prejudiced targeting of blacks and latinos would at least break one of the racist cycles that destroys lives, and might start emptying out the prisons of innocent and non-violent people locked up for long periods on petty transgressions.
Cheers again Wavey. Will see if I can find somewhere where I can watch it for free.
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Old 31-05-2020, 03:12 PM
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