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  #111261  
Old 13-08-2019, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
The point is they donít want to be communicated with and they donít want to be persuaded. They just want BREXIT.

Remain is wasting its time trying to communicate. It should just take back control.
Well there is that.

Give it another 20 years and Brexiteers will have largely died after all
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  #111262  
Old 13-08-2019, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
I have to say Hal Low's posts on here are dismissed at your peril.

I too want to rail at the idiocy of Brexit, and have long and loudly bemoaned the ridiculous emotional and sentimental basis of Brexit.

The fact that Brexiteers simply won't respond to evidential argument is frustrating to behold.

However if Remain's response is to show that frustration, and worse still express it by dismissing Brexiteers as stupid, ignorant and racist, then they are indeed only shoring up the Brexit position - however illogical it is.

Hal Low is right, Remain has yet to figure out how to communicate with Brexiteers in an effective manner, a manner they can respond to.
Some of them are thick as pig s**t, and no mistaking. You couldn't change their minds if you tried, because they're not actually interested in Brexit or the reality of it, but wedded to an ideological opinion of the UK that's typically based in nostalgia and fantasy nationalism.

But equally, there are remainers who can't be convinced that Brexit might not actually be entirely disasterous either and that the EU isn't itself an entirely benign organisation (its very pro-capitalist, pro-corporate and this approach has done significant harm to the UK working classes).
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  #111263  
Old 13-08-2019, 10:33 PM
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Nice one Bercow

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  #111264  
Old 13-08-2019, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Some of them are thick as pig s**t, and no mistaking. You couldn't change their minds if you tried, because they're not actually interested in Brexit or the reality of it, but wedded to an ideological opinion of the UK that's typically based in nostalgia and fantasy nationalism.

But equally, there are remainers who can't be convinced that Brexit might not actually be entirely disasterous either and that the EU isn't itself an entirely benign organisation (its very pro-capitalist, pro-corporate and this approach has done significant harm to the UK working classes).
There is indeed much wrong with the EU, however I would say the tory party bears a little more responsibility for shitting on the poor and poorly paid than the EU.
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  #111265  
Old 13-08-2019, 10:50 PM
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Nice one Bercow

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Good to see spread sheet Phil call out Cummins as the unelected puppet master.

In the name of our 'sovereign democracy' and 'taking back control' we have an unelected sociopath as PM being run by a criminal psychopath who isn't even an MP but is held in contempt of Parliament.
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  #111266  
Old 14-08-2019, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
Good to see spread sheet Phil call out Cummins as the unelected puppet master.

In the name of our 'sovereign democracy' and 'taking back control' we have an unelected sociopath as PM being run by a criminal psychopath who isn't even an MP but is held in contempt of Parliament.
And interesting that No 10 is taking pages straight out of the Trump playbook by briefing that Hammond was trying to stop and reverse Brexit all along.
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  #111267  
Old 14-08-2019, 07:25 AM
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And interesting that No 10 is taking pages straight out of the Trump playbook by briefing that Hammond was trying to stop and reverse Brexit all along.
Steve Bannon is Dominic Cummins is Goebbels.

There is also much similar between the floppy blond haired narcissist with multiple divorces behind him, of a previously liberal mindset, loves the sound of his own voice sex-crazed over-privileged Boris Johnson and Donald Trump.

Anglo Aynrandia Saxon Empire it is then
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  #111268  
Old 14-08-2019, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
But equally, there are remainers who can't be convinced that Brexit might not actually be entirely disasterous either and that the EU isn't itself an entirely benign organisation (its very pro-capitalist, pro-corporate and this approach has done significant harm to the UK working classes).
Yes but remainers want the status quo and they see no advantage in self harm by leaving, to whatever degree.

It also depends on the meaning of "disastrous". If you are not well off or you are vulnerable, or lose your job, it will probably make life much worse, and that for those it is a true disaster overlaid on their already poor lot. If you are retired on a guaranteed income every month, it may not be so difficult, apart from going without certain fresh foodstuffs, so more of an inconvenience and irritation than disastrous. If you are rich enough and can afford to place hedge bets on sterling etc, and avoid new EU tax rules, you will be actually far better off and it won't be a disaster, it will be a godsend.
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  #111269  
Old 14-08-2019, 09:01 AM
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Remainers need to do more than ramp up project fear and insult those with less money and advantages than themselves. They need to keep on explaining how the EU can be reformed and how we in the UK can take domestic policies to ensure that the benefits of EU membership are more widely spread. Shouldn't be too hard.
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  #111270  
Old 14-08-2019, 09:07 AM
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Yes but remainers want the status quo and they see no advantage in self harm by leaving, to whatever degree.

It also depends on the meaning of "disastrous". If you are not well off or you are vulnerable, or lose your job, it will probably make life much worse, and that for those it is a true disaster overlaid on their already poor lot. If you are retired on a guaranteed income every month, it may not be so difficult, apart from going without certain fresh foodstuffs, so more of an inconvenience and irritation than disastrous. If you are rich enough and can afford to place hedge bets on sterling etc, and avoid new EU tax rules, you will be actually far better off and it won't be a disaster, it will be a godsend.
Letís suppose I have put some surplus cash into something that isnít sterling, if the pound collapses am I actually richer? Or have I just insulated myself against the downside?

Also can you name me an EU tax law that the U.K. have been required to implement as a result of our membership of the EU that it didnít already have. I can think of maybe one area. In fact mostly in the tax world our membership of the EU has resulted in less tax being collected in the U.K. rather than more.
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  #111271  
Old 14-08-2019, 09:09 AM
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I do not think that the Brexit result hinged on genuine anti European feelings but perhaps many people seeing things rightly or wrongly more in black and white terms. Was the EU policy about free movement really a problem,I doubt it, I suspect that too many brown people here was the card that was played.

I cannot recall the actual percentage figure mentioned within the last couple of weeks,possibly 41% for those who earn insufficient money to pay income tax.

Fear rather than stupidity brought about Brexit because for ever and a day the general population have been ignored by politicians and when for example Cameron had Obama over here and told people that we would be back of the queue it perhaps had the very opposite effect.

None of the concerns that I suspect created the result will be achieved by leaving the EU and I doubt that any of our politicians will heed any of the messages that the referendum sent.
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  #111272  
Old 14-08-2019, 09:59 AM
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Remainers need to do more than ramp up project fear and insult those with less money and advantages than themselves. They need to keep on explaining how the EU can be reformed and how we in the UK can take domestic policies to ensure that the benefits of EU membership are more widely spread. Shouldn't be too hard.
Can it?

In order for the EU to be reformed you would need a majority in favour of that reform which as I see it would be nigh on impossible.

If your aim is to say restrict freedom of movement do you think the UK could really get that reform passed by the EU? And if so over what time period? Cameron tried the reform play and got laughed out the building.

While the "easiest deal possible / they need us more than we need them" was a unicorn of the Leave camp, the "stay in and reform" is a unicorn of the Remain side.
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  #111273  
Old 14-08-2019, 10:02 AM
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And interesting that No 10 is taking pages straight out of the Trump playbook by briefing that Hammond was trying to stop and reverse Brexit all along.
By voting for it multiple times.

This is the world we now live in. The people who voted for Brexit are secret remainers whilst the people who kept voting against leaving are the true believers
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  #111274  
Old 14-08-2019, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Remainers need to do more than ramp up project fear and insult those with less money and advantages than themselves. They need to keep on explaining how the EU can be reformed and how we in the UK can take domestic policies to ensure that the benefits of EU membership are more widely spread. Shouldn't be too hard.
Too hard? Your chums aren't interested in explanations, facts, reasoned debate or logic. Leaving has become an act of blind faith.
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  #111275  
Old 14-08-2019, 10:22 AM
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Too hard? Your chums aren't interested in explanations, facts, reasoned debate or logic. Leaving has become an act of blind faith.
MY chums? Nice bit of sarcasm there.
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  #111276  
Old 14-08-2019, 10:46 AM
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  #111277  
Old 14-08-2019, 11:23 AM
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At this point any voter must see that we are going to lose more power of decision and real independence by leaving the EU than we will by staying in, I suspect.
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  #111278  
Old 14-08-2019, 11:56 AM
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Can it?

In order for the EU to be reformed you would need a majority in favour of that reform which as I see it would be nigh on impossible.

If your aim is to say restrict freedom of movement do you think the UK could really get that reform passed by the EU? And if so over what time period? Cameron tried the reform play and got laughed out the building.

While the "easiest deal possible / they need us more than we need them" was a unicorn of the Leave camp, the "stay in and reform" is a unicorn of the Remain side.
Cameron did win concessions on FOM and there were measures already available which we didnít put in place. They were willing to reform, not scrap all the rules at our behest but reform.

ď
On in-work benefits: The Council would authorise that Member State to limit the access of newly arriving EU workers to non-contributory in-work benefits for a total period of up to four years from the commencement of employment. The limitation should be graduated, from an initial complete exclusion but gradually increasing access to such benefits to take account of the growing connection of the worker with the labour market of the host Member State. The authorisation would have a limited duration and apply to EU workers newly arriving during a period of 7 years.
On child benefit: A proposal to amend Regulation (EC) No 883/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council on the coordination of social security systems in order to give Member States, with regard to the exportation of child benefits to a Member State other than that where the worker resides, an option to index such benefits to the conditions of the Member State where the child resides. This should apply only to new claims made by EU workers in the host Member State. However, as from 1 January 2020, all Member States may extend indexation to existing claims to child benefits already exported by EU workers. The Commission does not intend to propose that the future system of optional indexation of child benefits be extended to other types of exportable benefits, such as old-age pensions;
Assessment: Mr Cameron had to compromise on this aspect of the deal in the face of strong opposition from Poland and three other central European countries. He got the four-year "emergency brake" on in-work benefits he had set such store by - but new arrivals will have their tax credits phased in over four years. The brake will be in place for a maximum of seven years, rather than the 13 years Mr Cameron is thought to have wanted - but the EU has agreed it would be "justified" to trigger it without delay after the referendum if the UK votes to stay in the EU.
Mr Cameron failed in his original demand to ban migrant workers from sending child benefit money back home. Payments will instead be linked to the cost of living in the countries where the children live. The new rules will apply immediately for new arrivals, and for existing claimants from 2020.
The UK government has already reached an agreement on out-of-work benefits. Newly arrived EU migrants are banned from claiming jobseeker's allowance for three months. If they have not found a job within six months they will be required to leave. EU migrant workers in the UK who lose their job, through no fault of their own, are entitled to the same benefits as UK citizens, including jobseekers allowance and housing benefit, for six months.
Neither the draft deal nor the final agreement mention changes to social housing entitlement but they were never part of Mr Cameron's preliminary negotiations.Ē
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  #111279  
Old 14-08-2019, 12:18 PM
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Right, so you think that leaving with no deal will only impact us 1-3%? This despite over 40% of our current trade being directly with the EU?

And Britain of the 50's? When they were children and had rationing and an absolutely massive war debt. You actually want this?

Mental.
But it looked idylllic in the Darling Buds of May.
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  #111280  
Old 14-08-2019, 12:42 PM
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Yes but remainers want the status quo
I want the status quo because the alternative is worse.

If someone wants to come up with an improvement....
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