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  #281  
Old 30-06-2020, 10:04 AM
hedge end eagle hedge end eagle is offline
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I don't think we are shit, but I do expect a lot more effort than we have shown over the last two games, rather than looking like we are safe and just going through the motions
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  #282  
Old 30-06-2020, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by AJ's right boot View Post
2 bad performances and suddenly we are shit. Not just you, loads of people are over reacting on here. Take stock of where we are, safe with about 10 games to do. We are a decent team. Two shit performances doesn't change that. It's football, you're gonna win some and lose some.
We may be a half decent team, a solid starting 11 when fully fit but the squad depth is shocking. I think that’s where people’s frustrations lie and Roy’s complete unwillingness to try something different at a time when we are completely safe and what do we have to lose. Give Jairo a run in midfield, give Max a run of games as well, not stuck out on the left.

You’re right, it’s football, you win some and you lose some but last night was an absolute shower of shit and an all too familiar home performance. 12 goals in 16 home games is truly woeful.
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  #283  
Old 30-06-2020, 10:23 AM
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Something I think is going under the radar a bit, because his overall game has dropped off - Zaha's passing seems to have improved massively this season. The choice of pass, accuracy and touch are all miles better than before. He seems to have really worked on this part of his game.

To be fair to Burnley they seem to have done their homework on this, and were working hard to block his passing lanes, and not just contain the dribbling like most teams try to do.
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  #284  
Old 30-06-2020, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by GB2506 View Post
We may be a half decent team, a solid starting 11 when fully fit but the squad depth is shocking. I think that’s where people’s frustrations lie and Roy’s complete unwillingness to try something different at a time when we are completely safe and what do we have to lose. Give Jairo a run in midfield, give Max a run of games as well, not stuck out on the left.

You’re right, it’s football, you win some and you lose some but last night was an absolute shower of shit and an all too familiar home performance. 12 goals in 16 home games is truly woeful.
Not just squad depth but balance as well. Only two specialist full backs and wingers, two strikers (yet another allowed to go on loan), loads of centre backs (just as well given how injury prone some seem to be), plenty of central midfielders but none who’s truly creative.
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  #285  
Old 30-06-2020, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by AJ's right boot View Post
2 bad performances and suddenly we are shit. Not just you, loads of people are over reacting on here. Take stock of where we are, safe with about 10 games to do. We are a decent team. Two shit performances doesn't change that. It's football, you're gonna win some and lose some.
It's not a question of being 'shit' ( we clearly aren't being hammered every week or we would be relegated by now ) but the fact that we continue to have only one way of winning. Defense is not and never really has been a problem here since P*lis but the perennial issue has been creating goals and starving a succession of strikers of opportunities.

Our club is remarkable for staying up year-on-year with attacking stats worse than teams who drop. That says something fundamental about how we approach attacking play and the fact remains that for us to even score usually relies on effective wing play and a striker to be an effective 'out' for defense. Otherwise, we are pretty much toothless. There is no real Plan B or reliable other source for goals, other that the ocassional contribution of Schlupp, when he is fit and not giving the ball away.

Liverpool was an outlier performance because no one really beats them but to fail to even have a single touch in their box is still pretty f*cking telling and, aside from a slight injection of movement and vision from Meyer, we never really 'clicked' yesterday. All right, so the uncharacteristic mistake by VG, and Burnley then shutting up shop, was a worst-of-all-worlds scenario but we've seen this happen so many times -if Zaha's not on song and Benteke's not holding the ball up to help us advance, we struggle to find ways through or advance the ball into the opposition half before they can recover. The midfield just isn't going to unpick a defense and there's no one ( except a fit Schlupp ) who's likely to run through a defense from the middle. It's always the same one-trick way of playing, with minimal alternative options.

Zaha at least helps us advance the ball but has been poor this season. He hasn't almost single-handedly won us games many times this year so we've been very ineffective going forward. And for those who think that's a sign we are somehow 'past' relying on him, bear in mind only three things, none of which we can expect to repeat next season, have stopped us from being in a relegation dogfight;

1. Ayew has scored a single goal in incredibly opportune times.
2. Our defense has kept us up. Only Norwich has scored less.
3. VAR decisions and sending offs have been very helpful in 'shading' us matches. We've had more of our fair share and, absent them, could have easily still been looking over our shoulder.

The only way that we can still feel confident of avoiding trouble next season is if Zaha both stays and returns to form / full commitment. Otherwise, we'll need the defense to continue to play with the efficiency of a Top Six team, Ayew's goals to come at the most opportune times and VAR to settle matches in our favour, on decisions that could easily go the other way. That's a lot to rely on.

Or we could try to play with a little more fluidity by adding some creativity in the middle. Trouble is, we are where we are -reliant on scraping by on defense and pinching goals through our regimented system of play -because we don't seem to want to do it any other way and it's been like that long before Roy got here. We've had dozens of windows to avoid this bottleneck of an aging squad with ever diminishing creativity and versatility but we've refused to address it. Now, we'll have a mountain to climb to survive what needs to be a carefully managed ( and expensive ) transition, unless we expect to keep falling on the right side of a knife edge forever.

Last edited by SOUTHGATE EAGLE; 30-06-2020 at 11:01 AM.
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  #286  
Old 30-06-2020, 11:15 AM
DARZET EAGLE DARZET EAGLE is offline
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Originally Posted by SOUTHGATE EAGLE View Post
It's not a question of being 'shit' ( we clearly aren't being hammered every week or we would be relegated by now ) but the fact that we continue to have only one way of winning. Defense is not and never really has been a problem here since P*lis but the perennial issue has been creating goals and starving a succession of strikers of opportunities.

Our club is remarkable for staying up year-on-year with attacking stats worse than teams who drop. That says something fundamental about how we approach attacking play and the fact remains that for us to even score usually relies on effective wing play and a striker to be an effective 'out' for defense. Otherwise, we are pretty much toothless. There is no real Plan B or reliable other source for goals, other that the ocassional contribution of Schlupp, when he is fit and not giving the ball away.

Liverpool was an outlier performance because no one really beats them but to fail to even have a single touch in their box is still pretty f*cking telling and, aside from a slight injection of movement and vision from Meyer, we never really 'clicked' yesterday. All right, so the uncharacteristic mistake by VG, and Burnley then shutting up shop, was a worst-of-all-worlds scenario but we've seen this happen so many times -if Zaha's not on song and Benteke's not holding the ball up to help us advance, we struggle to find ways through or advance the ball into the opposition half before they can recover. The midfield just isn't going to unpick a defense and there's no one ( except a fit Schlupp ) who's likely to run through a defense from the middle. It's always the same one-trick way of playing, with minimal alternative options.

Zaha at least helps us advance the ball but has been poor this season. He hasn't almost single-handedly won us games many times this year so we've been very ineffective going forward. And for those who think that's a sign we are somehow 'past' relying on him, bear in mind only three things, none of which we can expect to repeat next season, have stopped us from being in a relegation dogfight;

1. Ayew has scored a single goal in incredibly opportune times.
2. Our defense has kept us up. Only Norwich has scored less.
3. VAR decisions and sending offs have been very helpful in 'shading' us matches. We've had more of our fair share and, absent them, could have easily still been looking over our shoulder.

The only way that we can still feel confident of avoiding trouble next season is if Zaha both stays and returns to form / full commitment. Otherwise, we'll need the defense to continue to play with the efficiency of a Top Six team, Ayew's goals to come at the most opportune times and VAR to settle matches in our favour, on decisions that could easily go the other way. That's a lot to rely on.

Or we could try to play with a little more fluidity by adding some creativity in the middle. Trouble is, we are where we are -reliant on scraping by on defense and pinching goals through our regimented system of play -because we don't seem to want to do it any other way and it's been like that long before Roy got here. We've had dozens of windows to avoid this bottleneck of an aging squad with ever diminishing creativity and versatility but we've refused to address it. Now, we'll have a mountain to climb to survive what needs to be a carefully managed ( and expensive ) transition, unless we expect to keep falling on the right side of a knife edge forever.
Terrific post.
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  #287  
Old 30-06-2020, 12:23 PM
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GreatGonzo GreatGonzo is offline
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Originally Posted by SOUTHGATE EAGLE View Post
It's not a question of being 'shit' ( we clearly aren't being hammered every week or we would be relegated by now ) but the fact that we continue to have only one way of winning. Defense is not and never really has been a problem here since P*lis but the perennial issue has been creating goals and starving a succession of strikers of opportunities.

Our club is remarkable for staying up year-on-year with attacking stats worse than teams who drop. That says something fundamental about how we approach attacking play and the fact remains that for us to even score usually relies on effective wing play and a striker to be an effective 'out' for defense. Otherwise, we are pretty much toothless. There is no real Plan B or reliable other source for goals, other that the ocassional contribution of Schlupp, when he is fit and not giving the ball away.

Liverpool was an outlier performance because no one really beats them but to fail to even have a single touch in their box is still pretty f*cking telling and, aside from a slight injection of movement and vision from Meyer, we never really 'clicked' yesterday. All right, so the uncharacteristic mistake by VG, and Burnley then shutting up shop, was a worst-of-all-worlds scenario but we've seen this happen so many times -if Zaha's not on song and Benteke's not holding the ball up to help us advance, we struggle to find ways through or advance the ball into the opposition half before they can recover. The midfield just isn't going to unpick a defense and there's no one ( except a fit Schlupp ) who's likely to run through a defense from the middle. It's always the same one-trick way of playing, with minimal alternative options.

Zaha at least helps us advance the ball but has been poor this season. He hasn't almost single-handedly won us games many times this year so we've been very ineffective going forward. And for those who think that's a sign we are somehow 'past' relying on him, bear in mind only three things, none of which we can expect to repeat next season, have stopped us from being in a relegation dogfight;

1. Ayew has scored a single goal in incredibly opportune times.
2. Our defense has kept us up. Only Norwich has scored less.
3. VAR decisions and sending offs have been very helpful in 'shading' us matches. We've had more of our fair share and, absent them, could have easily still been looking over our shoulder.

The only way that we can still feel confident of avoiding trouble next season is if Zaha both stays and returns to form / full commitment. Otherwise, we'll need the defense to continue to play with the efficiency of a Top Six team, Ayew's goals to come at the most opportune times and VAR to settle matches in our favour, on decisions that could easily go the other way. That's a lot to rely on.

Or we could try to play with a little more fluidity by adding some creativity in the middle. Trouble is, we are where we are -reliant on scraping by on defense and pinching goals through our regimented system of play -because we don't seem to want to do it any other way and it's been like that long before Roy got here. We've had dozens of windows to avoid this bottleneck of an aging squad with ever diminishing creativity and versatility but we've refused to address it. Now, we'll have a mountain to climb to survive what needs to be a carefully managed ( and expensive ) transition, unless we expect to keep falling on the right side of a knife edge forever.

I agree with your 3 points as to why we have escaped the dogfight this season.

Couple of things i would dispute though. We were solid under Pulis and have been again under Hodgson however inbetween we were not. Warnock saw us concede a goal and a half a game, Pardew a little over that especially in that final few months. Even under Allardyce we averaged almost a goal and a half a game.

Only Pulis and Roy have made us really secure at the back.

Attacking stats since 14/15 when understat data starts have Palace in 13th, 13th, 12th, 7th, and 12th for the quality of chances being created. This season we are battling Newcastle for bottom spot. In no year, until this has our attack been worse than the teams relegated.

Pulis, Sam and Pardew all tried to use the wings, get men wide, get balls in, use width and pace. Roy wants to come central, our wingers are set up so they can come inside onto their stronger foot, rather than hit the byline and deliver a ball. We showed at Bournemouth how to do it using the wings but against Burnley it was all central again. Ward and Meyer are not offering us the width, Zaha and Townsed are cutting inside and we have virtually no touches in the opposition box.

I don't think Zaha will have a choice but to stay. I cannot see anyone offering European football wanting him and willing to pay him what he wants. However i don't see him flourishing under a manager whose way of playing stifles attacking impetus.
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  #288  
Old 30-06-2020, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
I agree with your 3 points as to why we have escaped the dogfight this season.

Couple of things i would dispute though. We were solid under Pulis and have been again under Hodgson however inbetween we were not. Warnock saw us concede a goal and a half a game, Pardew a little over that especially in that final few months. Even under Allardyce we averaged almost a goal and a half a game.

Only Pulis and Roy have made us really secure at the back.

Attacking stats since 14/15 when understat data starts have Palace in 13th, 13th, 12th, 7th, and 12th for the quality of chances being created. This season we are battling Newcastle for bottom spot. In no year, until this has our attack been worse than the teams relegated.

Pulis, Sam and Pardew all tried to use the wings, get men wide, get balls in, use width and pace. Roy wants to come central, our wingers are set up so they can come inside onto their stronger foot, rather than hit the byline and deliver a ball. We showed at Bournemouth how to do it using the wings but against Burnley it was all central again. Ward and Meyer are not offering us the width, Zaha and Townsed are cutting inside and we have virtually no touches in the opposition box.

I don't think Zaha will have a choice but to stay. I cannot see anyone offering European football wanting him and willing to pay him what he wants. However i don't see him flourishing under a manager whose way of playing stifles attacking impetus.
I think those attacking stats are telling. What it is saying is that we were creating chances until this season. That by far our best attack was in 2017/18 (when we had RLC as an additional runner, and Cabaye pulling the strings). And that every other season in recent times we were 12th or 13th. What we have to remember to explain the lack of attacking threat this season compared to those seasons are as follows:

1) AWB in acres of space able to use his pace on the overlap. Especially last season.

2) We played predominately 4-4-2 for most of those seasons, including last season. This means that we had 2 forwards next to each other high up the pitch. This season we've reverted to 4-3-3, which means often there's only one isolated forward, and the wide attackers in the front 3 are tracking back to defend in the full back position a lot of the time.

Small margins but both of those problems need to be rectified. An attacking right back who is as comfortable on the ball and as good going forward as AWB and PVA would be a great start and is an absolute must. (Here, I do have confidence that we will sort it out, although it is obviously taking us at least a year longer than it should have done.) I'd personally switch back to 4-4-2 and play 2 forwards, especially if Wilf is still here so we can release him of his defensive responsibility and watch him hit double figures again with a roving free role. But whether we change the formation or not, whether we sell Zaha or not, we need to buy some more creative players to replace Bolasie/RLC as a runner, and Cabaye for his ability to break up play and pass forwards in a creative fashion. It won't be exactly the same as the champagne football we played in 2017/18 but we can't afford to limp on the way we have done this season or we will drop. There's no doubt about it. We can't rely on Ayew to slot every chance away because he scored 1 goal the previous season in the Premier League. We shouldn't rely on the defence to continue their excellent work. We need to add pace and creativity.

And that doesn't necessarily mean another striker, we need midfielders who can cross, pass forwards and go past the opposition even more. Buying a striker like Batshuayi will perhaps improve our conversion rate but it won't address the root cause of our attacking negligence. I have been screaming since summer 2018 that problems are coming down the road without investment. Now they are here as predicted it's time for the owners to sort it out. It's not about just opening the cheque book either, it's about prioritising the right positions. Meyer has been a flop because we bought him based on what he did in a quarterback role for Schalke and yet he wants to play further forward in a role he has failed in for Schalke (due to being paceless with no skill, no creativity and limited shooting ability). Perhaps we were unlucky with that one. But the signings of Kouyate for £10m and James McCarthy used up scarce and precious funds in a position where we already had Milivojevic, McArthur, Riedewald and even Schlupp who Roy is happy to use in centre mid. We were fully stocked in defensive centre mids and we went out and bought more! That's what I'm most worried about, that when we replace Zaha we will just replace him like for like with someone inferior. That we will sign another target man striker like Tosun and expect us to all of a sudden score more goals. I just don't feel the hierarchy understand what we need. We need PACE and CREATIVITY from the midfield positions. We need at least 2 players, ideally 3, and 4 if Zaha goes with these attributes if we are to fulfill the brief we should be setting for ourselves. I don't have faith that the correct brief is going to be forthcoming, sadly. We won't set the right brief, let alone manage to nail it.
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Last edited by glaziers fan; 30-06-2020 at 01:46 PM.
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  #289  
Old 30-06-2020, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by glaziers fan View Post
I think those attacking stats are telling. What it is saying is that we were creating chances until this season. That by far our best attack was in 2017/18 (when we had RLC as an additional runner, and Cabaye pulling the strings). And that every other season in recent times we were 12th or 13th. What we have to remember to explain the lack of attacking threat this season compared to those seasons are as follows:

1) AWB in acres of space able to use his pace on the overlap. Especially last season.

2) We played predominately 4-4-2 for most of those seasons, including last season. This means that we had 2 forwards next to each other high up the pitch. This season we've reverted to 4-3-3, which means often there's only one isolated forward, and the wide attackers in the front 3 are tracking back to defend in the full back position a lot of the time.

Small margins but both of those problems need to be rectified. An attacking right back who is as comfortable on the ball and as good going forward as AWB and PVA would be a great start and is an absolute must. (Here, I do have confidence that we will sort it out, although it is obviously taking us at least a year longer than it should have done.) I'd personally switch back to 4-4-2 and play 2 forwards, especially if Wilf is still here so we can release him of his defensive responsibility and watch him hit double figures again with a roving free role. But whether we change the formation or not, whether we sell Zaha or not, we need to buy some more creative players to replace Bolasie/RLC as a runner, and Cabaye for his ability to break up play and pass forwards in a creative fashion. It won't be exactly the same as the champagne football we played in 2017/18 but we can't afford to limp on the way we have done this season or we will drop. There's no doubt about it. We can't rely on Ayew to slot every chance away because he scored 1 goal the previous season in the Premier League. We shouldn't rely on the defence to continue their excellent work. We need to add pace and creativity.

And that doesn't necessarily mean another striker, we need midfielders who can cross, pass forwards and go past the opposition even more. Buying a striker like Batshuayi will perhaps improve our conversion rate but it won't address the root cause of our attacking negligence. I have been screaming since summer 2018 that problems are coming down the road without investment. Now they are here as predicted it's time for the owners to sort it out. It's not about just opening the cheque book either, it's about prioritising the right positions. Meyer has been a flop because we bought him based on what he did in a quarterback role for Schalke and yet he wants to play further forward in a role he has failed in for Schalke (due to being paceless with no skill, no creativity and limited shooting ability). Perhaps we were unlucky with that one. But the signings of Kouyate for £10m and James McCarthy used up scarce and precious funds in a position where we already had Milivojevic, McArthur, Riedewald and even Schlupp who Roy is happy to use in centre mid. We were fully stocked in defensive centre mids and we went out and bought more! That's what I'm most worried about, that when we replace Zaha we will just replace him like for like with someone inferior. That we will sign another target man striker like Tosun and expect us to all of a sudden score more goals. I just don't feel the hierarchy understand what we need. We need PACE and CREATIVITY from the midfield positions. We need at least 2 players, ideally 3, and 4 if Zaha goes with these attributes if we are to fulfill the brief we should be setting for ourselves. I don't have faith that the correct brief is going to be forthcoming, sadly. We won't set the right brief, let alone manage to nail it.
This. If Zaha stays and we manage even a single midfield player able to add some penetration ( like RLC ) then get in someone able to add a little on the flank ( like Ferguson ) then we should go forward as a team.

Like you, I've advocated playing Zaha in a pair since we tried it ( to great success and Benteke scoring ) under BFS. It might be a new challenge that Zaha needs to recapture his mojo, especially if he is denied the move to European football that he craves. I honestly think buying a creative / dynamic midfielder and putting Zaha alongside Benteke would solve three problems at once; 1) Get us away from playing only from the wing, although PVA and Nathan Ferguson would likely provide service there. 2) Save us having to buy an expensive striker, although we could still do so. 3) Get something out of Benteke, who actually releases the ball superbly.

But, guaranteed, we'll still be lumping the ball up to Benteke to square it to a winger so the winger can do lots of triangles around the box with a RB / LB while the opposition defense has plenty of time to finish marking everyone and...(edit-I fell asleep thinking about it but you get the idea )
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