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  #141  
Old 16-09-2021, 04:34 AM
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So watching the programme and Noades comments again after all these years, I’m not sure what to think?? There’s a couple of moments where indeed, as Bright and Wright claimed, it could have been edited in a way that they are not his thoughts but talking about the general consensus; but his comments do come across as sailing very close to the wind, although I think they weren’t coming from a bad place. Ron was certainly from the Norman Tebbit hard school of knocks, the, ‘If you can’t find a job, get on your bike until you find one’ attitude; which of course ignores other underlying issues.

I’m pretty certain however, that Noades wasn’t a racist, but it does appear at that point he still had a few antiquated thoughts, and never being shy to give an interview, inevitably strayed into some contentious moments, which the programme editors decided to highlight.
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  #142  
Old 16-09-2021, 06:13 AM
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I suppose the question is when does an 'antiquated thought' become a 'racist attitude'.

I am reminded of the infamous Ron Atkinson comment - someone who like Noades was widely commended up until that point for his willingness to bring in and work with talented black footballers in an era when racism was rife.
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  #143  
Old 16-09-2021, 07:19 AM
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I didn't go to the Arsenal game but the scoreline had a depressingly familiar feel to it. They really turned us over regularly during that period. As SteveK has said Arsenal were scoring freely and in fact on looking at the table they were second top scorers in the division behind Forest despite only being midtable. So not immediately obvious how a new striker might fit in although Smith was knocking on a bit by this time.

There was only one new entry into the top ten for week ending 14 September:

Let's Talk About Sex by Salt-N-Pepa - Songs with the word sex in the title were all the rage over the summer of 1991, this one joined I'm Too Sexy and People Are Still Having Sex in the dubious canon. In fact Salt-N-Pepa's debut hit Push It was all about the act of having sex whereas they were now just talking about it, so it seemed they were gradually regressing into more prudish territory. Maybe their next effort would be about the sins of masturbation, who knew. Anyway it was a bouncy enough offering but without the same (dare I say) frantic drive that made Push It so memorable.
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  #144  
Old 16-09-2021, 10:40 AM
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Wright just tweeted a sickening conversation with David Dein about how the move happened. Ron just named the price. Gutting even now.
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  #145  
Old 16-09-2021, 12:29 PM
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Found it!

Here it is, the documentary in full, that caused the whole racism row.

It doesn't make great viewing. I'm not sure Brian Marwood would be particularly proud of trying to square players receiving racist abuse from fans with abuse of fat, or bald, players.

As far as Noades is concerned, at a stretch it's possible that the comments early on were edited a certain way, and that when spoken they had been prefaced with something along the lines of 'this is how people used to think'. However, when he gave his views on black managers, I thought that they undermined that argument, as they were definitely spoken as views on the 'present'.

I suspect that he wouldn't have viewed himself as a racist and it would seem that he didn't dislike black people (which no doubt he would have considered to be the test of being racist), but he certainly had some views that were at best outdated, even then.
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  #146  
Old 16-09-2021, 03:42 PM
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With all this stuff going on, off the pitch, it was about to get worse on the pitch, because
on top of getting stuffed by Arsenal, in the following midweek home game, we somehow lost 3-2 to fecking West Ham !!

I didn't go to the Arsenal game but I went to this one and although recollections of this are very hazy, I recall Palace being 1-0 up at HT, West Ham (already struggling and would be eventually relegated) looked dire and yet after HT they went 2-1 up. Palace got it back to 2-2 but the only goalscorer in the match I remember was friggin Trevor Morley, who got the winner.

I do remember poor old Perry Suckling looking a bag of nerves again and I think that was his final game in a Palace shirt.

How quickly it had seemed to go from hero to zero for the whole Club, now losing at home to what proved to be a useless side, that season.
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  #147  
Old 16-09-2021, 04:09 PM
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Results wise at least we are being a little premature in writing off the team at this stage. After the above mentioned home defeat to West Ham we embarked on a run of 17 points in 8 games including wins against the eventual champions Leeds (their first defeat of the season) and away at Liverpool. So on paper at least a highly impressive haul that would have lifted us reasonably close to the top of the table again. Bright went on his scoring run around this time to help things along. I didn't see most of these games so can't comment on the quality of the performances.

The run would end with a 5-1 stuffing at Nottingham Forest on 23 November and it was after then that the wheels truly came off. But we are getting ahead of ourselves a little here, let's savour each game as it comes 30 years later!
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  #148  
Old 16-09-2021, 04:59 PM
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I had mentally prepared myself that it would never get any better than that 3rd place for Palace but obviously things looked so good after 4 games of this following season - unlucky defeat at Man C, followed by 3 wins, it was difficult not to be optimistic then the next few days, with the TV show plus those 2 home defeats, things had imploded so suddenly.

I know the Club went on a good run after the Hammers game, but a certain star player was abruptly sold, another one picked up a very bad injury and we also really struggled to beat a Division 3 (now L1) team in the League Cup. Some good wins admittedly, but things just didn't seem right, any more - the stuffing seemed to have been knocked out of the Club. The thrashing at Forest was no real suprise.
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  #149  
Old 16-09-2021, 08:41 PM
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TUE 17 SEP - PALACE 2 WEST HAM 3

A proper London derby under the lights and an entertaining game.

I remember Wright & Salako scoring and also Mike Small for West Ham with a header. The Wright goal would be his last home goal for us.

On the train home I heard this cockney 'know it all' announce to his family and other assembled Hammers that 'Mike Small is a £2M striker'

IIRC they'd just bought him for £600,000. £2M would have made him in the top 4 or 5 players if true. I figured this guy was older than me so must know more than me and admittedly Small had looked pretty good in that game. Turns out he didn't.

"Mike Small is a £2M striker" remains one of the funniest football opinions I've ever heard in my 40+ years of being a fan!
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  #150  
Old 16-09-2021, 08:43 PM
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I do remember poor old Perry Suckling looking a bag of nerves again and I think that was his final game in a Palace shirt.
Nearly. Suckling did at least sign off with a win a few days later at Oldham, so has the pub trivia distinction of having the last Palace game as the same one as Ian Wright.
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  #151  
Old 17-09-2021, 08:25 PM
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PALACE 2. Salako. Wright
WEST HAM 3. Thomas. Morley. Small

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  #152  
Old 18-09-2021, 08:46 AM
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The more we dig back into this Noades thing the worse it looks for him doesn't it.

With the West Ham game being midweek I was able to get to it straight from work. I remember it as an open and entertaining game, end to end stuff and certainly with Pardew once again coming in as a makeshift midfielder we were never able to get a proper grip on the game. By this stage he really wasn't good enough to be starting for a team with aspirations of being in the top half of the table. We were also becoming worryingly loose at the back - confirmed having just watched the goals on Youtube, the first and third ones for the Hammers were both free headers from open play with our defenders standing around watching. Their second goal was a total fluke as noted in Bubbs' match report, the goal kick just hit Morley as he was running on to it and trickled past a startled Suckling into the net. Morley had a really lively game though, he was a mobile forward who could also drop deep and knit the play together. Also noticeable were the unusually muted celebrations from Wright after his equaliser, with hindsight it seems obvious that the story was about to come to a sudden end.

One thing I was pleased to note from the match report was mention of Perry Suckling's save from big Colin Foster. I was directly behind this on the Holmesdale and I remember it clear as day, it was a fantastic save, almost Gordon Banks-esque in that he somehow scooped away a powerful downward header from close range. Was nice to see him make a contribution like that, for all that it didn't work out for Perry in the top division he played a key role in our promotion side and was a popular figure.
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  #153  
Old 19-09-2021, 06:34 AM
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The more we dig back into this Noades thing the worse it looks for him doesn't it.

With the West Ham game being midweek I was able to get to it straight from work. I remember it as an open and entertaining game, end to end stuff and certainly with Pardew once again coming in as a makeshift midfielder we were never able to get a proper grip on the game. By this stage he really wasn't good enough to be starting for a team with aspirations of being in the top half of the table. We were also becoming worryingly loose at the back - confirmed having just watched the goals on Youtube, the first and third ones for the Hammers were both free headers from open play with our defenders standing around watching. Their second goal was a total fluke as noted in Bubbs' match report, the goal kick just hit Morley as he was running on to it and trickled past a startled Suckling into the net. Morley had a really lively game though, he was a mobile forward who could also drop deep and knit the play together. Also noticeable were the unusually muted celebrations from Wright after his equaliser, with hindsight it seems obvious that the story was about to come to a sudden end.

One thing I was pleased to note from the match report was mention of Perry Suckling's save from big Colin Foster. I was directly behind this on the Holmesdale and I remember it clear as day, it was a fantastic save, almost Gordon Banks-esque in that he somehow scooped away a powerful downward header from close range. Was nice to see him make a contribution like that, for all that it didn't work out for Perry in the top division he played a key role in our promotion side and was a popular figure.
It has almost been forgotten in the giant shadow that is the Anfield 9-0 massacre, but when Suckling arrived midway through the 87/88 season, he was an instant hero. George Wood’s form had deteriorated and become a real problem culminating in his bizarre mistake at Leicester, allowing them back into the game.

Suckling arrived as a saviour at the time, and his penalty save in an important promotion clash against Blackburn cemented his popularity. He then had a good season in our promotion season but was found out somewhat in the top flight. After the 9-0, there just was no coming back from that even though pretty much none of the goals were obviously his fault.
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  #154  
Old 19-09-2021, 07:25 AM
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Looking back, it wasn't obvious to me at the time that goalkeepers could 'go'. Just like that.

One minute decent, match saving team members. The next - weaknesses cruelly exposed in the most unforgiving of positions, never to recover. We had two in Wood and Suckling in quick succession, but over the years it has happened to loads of them, perhaps Joe Hart is the most famous recent example. Poor old Perry was still a young man when he went.
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  #155  
Old 19-09-2021, 10:49 AM
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Story time…

It was around this time 30 years ago, that I went along to our Mitcham training ground one morning to watch the lads train, as I often did around that time. At the end of the session Ian Wright was slowly trudging back to the hut on his own and I thought I’d take an opportunity to go and chat to him. There must’ve been rumours of him leaving at the time because I asked him about it, and he said there was no truth in it whatsoever. Somewhere I’ve still got his autograph he gave me in that meeting, with my words written underneath, ‘12 days after writing this, he left to Arsenal.’

Whether he knew at the time or not who knows; and even if he did, I wouldn’t have expected him to tell a supporter in passing, but on hearing the news he’d gone I was feeling a bit more betrayal than most.

Funny thing is, about 7 years before, the very same thing happened with Vince Hilaire. Back in 1984, as an 11 year old, my Sunday League side were invited to the Croydon kids Sunday League awards ceremony, held at the Glaziers club, to receive an award we’d won that season. To my total excitement, I learned that my hero for many a year, Vince Hilaire would be handing out the trophies. Still got pictures somewhere of that night too, but I clearly remember being a complete pest to Vince. There were strong rumours of him going and I literally spent most of the night going up to him and begging him not to leave. He was lovely and reassured me on more than one occasion he wasn’t going anywhere. Two weeks later he was off.

Oh Vince…broke my heart.
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  #156  
Old 19-09-2021, 06:58 PM
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Looking back, it wasn't obvious to me at the time that goalkeepers could 'go'. Just like that.

One minute decent, match saving team members. The next - weaknesses cruelly exposed in the most unforgiving of positions, never to recover. We had two in Wood and Suckling in quick succession, but over the years it has happened to loads of them, perhaps Joe Hart is the most famous recent example. Poor old Perry was still a young man when he went.
I remember reading an article in one of the papers during the 1988-89 season talking about our prospects if we got promoted - iirc it said we had two players who were good enough for Division One: Perry Suckling and Geoff Thomas.

I think the last time I saw Suckling was him playing for Watford when we beat them 3-0 at their place. He didn't make any howlers, but he looked jittery and not really good enough. Such a shame - the 9-0 destroyed his confidence.
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  #157  
Old 19-09-2021, 07:23 PM
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Didn't Perry escape to hong kong in the end? I seem to remember Coppell talking sympathetically about it being a chance for him to get going......
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Old 19-09-2021, 08:13 PM
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Didn't Perry escape to hong kong in the end? I seem to remember Coppell talking sympathetically about it being a chance for him to get going......
Wiki says he joined Ernest Borel who indeed were a Hong Kong club in 1992. Although the same year he came back and joined Watford.
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Old 19-09-2021, 08:20 PM
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Didn't Perry escape to hong kong in the end? I seem to remember Coppell talking sympathetically about it being a chance for him to get going......
Correct. That was part of the crazy situation where Palace had all 4 keepers unavailable for the QPR game in May 1992 and we had to get Neil Sullivan on an emergency loan (and no one had a clue who he was!)

Martyn, Glass, Woodman all injured and Suckling 10000 miles away!!
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Old 19-09-2021, 08:23 PM
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I think the last time I saw Suckling was him playing for Watford when we beat them 3-0 at their place. He didn't make any howlers, but he looked jittery and not really good enough. Such a shame - the 9-0 destroyed his confidence.
Last time I saw Perry he was in goal for Doncaster and on the receiving end of a 4-0 walloping from Tony Pulis's record-breaking Gillingham side in 1995-96.

Happy that Gillingham won but was sad to see Perry had sunk so low given his efforts in 1989. That save from Simon Garner in extra time in the play offs was the equivalent of the Joel Ward header off the line v Watford
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