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  #281  
Old 21-01-2020, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Jukesy View Post
The choice is to stay on benefits or work for a living, maybe on lower wages to start with (as we all did), improve and expand your knowledge of the job you are doing, get promoted, move to a higher paying job - get on in life.
So you believe there are people doing jobs who deserve to be paid poverty wages?
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  #282  
Old 21-01-2020, 10:03 PM
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Maz; you think you can do pithy comments.

They are simply pissy comments and you should figure out how to better contribute to society than just posting your f*cking nonsense on here.
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  #283  
Old 21-01-2020, 11:01 PM
dogstar721 dogstar721 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jukesy View Post
The choice is to stay on benefits or work for a living, maybe on lower wages to start with (as we all did), improve and expand your knowledge of the job you are doing, get promoted, move to a higher paying job - get on in life.
Not really, because on lower wages, you'll only ever be part time work. Full time work, you'll lose most of your benefits, and 800-1k a month isn't going to pay the rent if you've got kids or dependents.

Here in lies the poverty trap of s**t wages. Full time work, on minimum wage is about manageable if you live in a shared house (maybe) or at home with your parents.

Working full time isn't really an option.
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  #284  
Old 21-01-2020, 11:02 PM
dogstar721 dogstar721 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jukesy View Post
Minimum wage rise 2018 = 4.9%
Minimum wage rise 2019 = 6.2%

Both considerably above the average rate of inflation.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but keep it real.
Yes, in the last two years it has risen. Take that over a 10 year period, and it looks as s**ty as it really is.
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  #285  
Old 21-01-2020, 11:11 PM
dogstar721 dogstar721 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Housing costs are a massive problem; that is we need a massive house building programme and switch from BTL to home ownership.
Realistically, we need to systematically revisit the concept of housing and what purpose it serves in the UK. Investment, business or where people live.

Building more houses for sale periodically hasn't resolved the problem. It just ends up providing more stock for landlords and investment companies that rent properties out.

Councils can't afford to house vulnerable people, housing associations will try to avoid housing low income and the unemployed, and just about turn to any excuse to be able to reject 'social need' housing obligations. Hell, Councils are struggling to afford to pay housing benefit.

The failure to regulate private landlords and house ownership over 40 years of greed has created a nightmare monster than no one is willing to deal with other than to build more 'affordable housing and first time owner housing' that generally ends up either in the hands of those earning a good wage (can afford a mortgage just about) and usually eventually ends up as housing stock for private landlords.

The fate of most of the council properties sold off in the 80s and 90s, has been to become private rented housing.
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  #286  
Old 21-01-2020, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by GorBlimey View Post
Maz; you think you can do pithy comments.

They are simply pissy comments and you should figure out how to better contribute to society than just posting your f*cking nonsense on here.
Lol. Almost word play, well done; an improvement on your normal ignorant abuse. You know incidentally the difference between stupid and ignorant? The ignorant can learn ; so there might be hope for you, even at your age, yet.
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  #287  
Old 22-01-2020, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Lol. Almost word play, well done; an improvement on your normal ignorant abuse. You know incidentally the difference between stupid and ignorant? The ignorant can learn ; so there might be hope for you, even at your age, yet.
whilst the ignorant can learn, the evidence of his posts indicate it’s definitely a bit of a stretch for Gormless
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  #288  
Old 22-01-2020, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
There are a percentage of jobs that are low paid. Unless that changes through workers having more power, then some will always be in them.

If only it was as easy as you say.
It isn't easy CR and I haven't said that. It is part of life to strive to do better for yourself rather than rely on the state.

I know you will not take offence but the communist utopia you dream of will never happen and has been proved to be even more flawed than the capitalist world we live in.

There is a middle ground, but I guess you would not be satisfied with that either?
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  #289  
Old 22-01-2020, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rhino_mik View Post
So you believe there are people doing jobs who deserve to be paid poverty wages?
Did I say that? Are you reading my mind Rhino? Poverty is not a "wage".

If the minimum wage was increased to £15 per hour then those on it would still be in poverty because the measure of poverty in this country is different in every country in the world. We shape up well in Europe 3rd best by the EU's own calculator but that is no reason not to go further and the increases in the mimimum and living wage over the last 3 years are definite signs of things moving in the right direction.

I have several employees on the Living wage here given the unskilled nature of the work. If I paid them more I would lose that business to countries who pay far less, with far less workers rights. Along with Employees NI and Workplace Pension the figure is close to the £15 I mentioned earlier.

Having said all that, to you and CR, I am still an evil employer trying to exploit my staff...
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  #290  
Old 22-01-2020, 03:54 PM
dogstar721 dogstar721 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jukesy View Post
It isn't easy CR and I haven't said that. It is part of life to strive to do better for yourself rather than rely on the state.

I know you will not take offence but the communist utopia you dream of will never happen and has been proved to be even more flawed than the capitalist world we live in.

There is a middle ground, but I guess you would not be satisfied with that either?
The Protestant Work Ethic in action. Why is that, when you are in effect the state as well as a potential beneficary of the state? When my house is on fire, I rely on the state.

The mistake I think we make is that we see the state as being seperate from us, as individuals, rather than us as a collective whole. State is something we see ourselves as belonging to, and being owned by, rather than being part of.

People think in terms of communist and capitalist can never deliver a 'utopia', and they tend to use that as a means of justifying an unjust society, which isn't really benefitting them either, rather than changing society for individual interests.
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  #291  
Old 22-01-2020, 04:14 PM
dogstar721 dogstar721 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jukesy View Post
Did I say that? Are you reading my mind Rhino? Poverty is not a "wage".

If the minimum wage was increased to £15 per hour then those on it would still be in poverty because the measure of poverty in this country is different in every country in the world. We shape up well in Europe 3rd best by the EU's own calculator but that is no reason not to go further and the increases in the mimimum and living wage over the last 3 years are definite signs of things moving in the right direction.

I have several employees on the Living wage here given the unskilled nature of the work. If I paid them more I would lose that business to countries who pay far less, with far less workers rights. Along with Employees NI and Workplace Pension the figure is close to the £15 I mentioned earlier.

Having said all that, to you and CR, I am still an evil employer trying to exploit my staff...
The problem isn't really about the amount per se, but its what it costs to live (ie housing, heating, water, transport etc). Money is only really as important as what it can 'buy'. For example, you might earn 300 more in the US, but not having socialised health care might eat that up.

This is why the housing crisis is such a f**king beast of a problem. Even living on a s**ty undesirable, crime plauged estate in Reading, a two bedroomed house is likely to set you back, or the local council, over a grand a month.

A one bedroom flat, probably 750-900 a month (give or take).

Fundamentally, that makes working for less than 10 a hour a bad economic choice. You're better off on benefits, as you'll more or less be in the same position, but you're in theory economically more secure (income is guarenteed) and have 37.5 hours a week back to do with as you want.

In terms of disposable income you're more or less in the same position working as not working. In some cases obviously you need to figure on potentially being promoted and future pay rises etc but realistically most people on low wage roles tend to remain in and around low waged jobs.
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  #292  
Old 22-01-2020, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
The Protestant Work Ethic in action. Why is that, when you are in effect the state as well as a potential beneficary of the state? When my house is on fire, I rely on the state.

The mistake I think we make is that we see the state as being seperate from us, as individuals, rather than us as a collective whole. State is something we see ourselves as belonging to, and being owned by, rather than being part of.

People think in terms of communist and capitalist can never deliver a 'utopia', and they tend to use that as a means of justifying an unjust society, which isn't really benefitting them either, rather than changing society for individual interests.
Fair enough - good points.

You and I pay many forms of tax that go into the collective pot to help with the running of our country and all that entails. I see that as making me part of the state. As you point out, I rely on the state when my house is on fire or in need of medical care, I am comfortable with this as I pay my dues.

It is a massive issue, you could say that those on the lower end of the wage scale perhaps did not make the most of the world class education available to us (especially now) and are now struggling to make ends meet, but it was ever thus. I obviously am not including those with outside influences affecting their opportunity to succeed like bad parenting or deprived background or more obvioulsy with disability or special need.

I just feel that those of us that have made some minor form of success for ourselves are demonised as horrible capitalist tory scum.
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  #293  
Old 22-01-2020, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
The problem isn't really about the amount per se, but its what it costs to live (ie housing, heating, water, transport etc). Money is only really as important as what it can 'buy'. For example, you might earn 300 more in the US, but not having socialised health care might eat that up.

This is why the housing crisis is such a f**king beast of a problem. Even living on a s**ty undesirable, crime plauged estate in Reading, a two bedroomed house is likely to set you back, or the local council, over a grand a month.

A one bedroom flat, probably 750-900 a month (give or take).

Fundamentally, that makes working for less than 10 a hour a bad economic choice. You're better off on benefits, as you'll more or less be in the same position, but you're in theory economically more secure (income is guarenteed) and have 37.5 hours a week back to do with as you want.

In terms of disposable income you're more or less in the same position working as not working. In some cases obviously you need to figure on potentially being promoted and future pay rises etc but realistically most people on low wage roles tend to remain in and around low waged jobs.
It is difficult to argue with you. Although once again I feel that you are looking at the extreme end of the situation perhaps? My daughter and her partner who both work have managed to save and buy a small house in Bromley with a massive mortgage but when I look at what their mortgage costs them as part of their income it is less than the percentage I had to pay for my flat in Penge back in the late 80s. So if you look at a property as a place to live rather than an investment they are better off than I was?

Many of their friends - ordinary 20 somethings from my area are doing the same - it's not easy (it never has been) - but it is achievable.
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  #294  
Old 22-01-2020, 05:19 PM
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The number of first time buyers is supposedly now at the highest rate since before the 2008 depression so hopefully things are turning.
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  #295  
Old 22-01-2020, 05:55 PM
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The US has just threatened us with a trade war if we go ahead with the new tech tax. I wonder how quickly Boris will back down
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  #296  
Old 22-01-2020, 06:03 PM
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The US has just threatened us with a trade war if we go ahead with the new tech tax. I wonder how quickly Boris will back down
Very. Macron already has. This will be solved at the OECD level.
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  #297  
Old 22-01-2020, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Housing costs are a massive problem; that is we need a massive house building programme and switch from BTL to home ownership.
Any chance you could put this in your signature rather than posting the same line seventeen times a day?

Thanks in advance.
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  #298  
Old 22-01-2020, 06:11 PM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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Any chance you could put this in your signature rather than posting the same line seventeen times a day?

Thanks in advance.
We need a house building programme and a switch from buy to let to home ownership. But to please Wolfie I'll think of something for my signature.
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  #299  
Old 22-01-2020, 06:14 PM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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Very. Macron already has. This will be solved at the OECD level.
It's an interesting one. The tax is principally aimed at US corporations so you can hardly blame the Americans for responding. In theory Macron has given them a year to resolve it but can you really see the OECD coming up with a working proposal? I think they'll struggle.
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  #300  
Old 22-01-2020, 06:21 PM
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We need a house building programme and a switch from buy to let to home ownership. But to please Wolfie I'll think of something for my signature.
You’re absolutely right matey...

But you do labour the point ever so slightly.
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