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  #20001  
Old 26-11-2020, 04:07 PM
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Results like Burnley happen as frequently as results like Man U or Leeds.
We’re mid table.
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  #20002  
Old 26-11-2020, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
Do you truly not think the intent of the tactics has changed this season, with better attacking players available?
I do find it very surprising when I read that on here, not sure if you're riding that train. It looks very clear to me.
A mixed bag. Overall seems the same crap, lit up by a wilf performance or in last 2 games eze.

Iíve said it for a while now, wilf bails Roy out a lot, and it show given the record we have without wilf.

I will say however there has a few more games this season where I thought we played well compared to last season, which probably adds to the frustration of watching the crap the other night against a pretty poor side.
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  #20003  
Old 26-11-2020, 04:09 PM
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Results like Burnley happen as frequently as results like Man U or Leeds.
Weíre mid table.
I think most accept the mid table comment.

I disagree with frequency of performances against the likes of Burnley. We have consistently struggled to break teams down, we are predictable.

Anyway, Burnley is now done.. onto Newcastle
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  #20004  
Old 26-11-2020, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Tomo View Post
I don't particularly want Dyche, but he's using the squad he has to the best of their ability.
I'm sure he'd like to be more expansive if he had the players available to him.

I think you're being very generous to say only a handful of managers could guarantee 40 points. There are no guarantees.

I think it still annoys me, that we had a period where of safety last season where we could be more expansive, or try new ways of playing and we didn't take that opportunity. I wouldn't have minded losing all those games if there was some clear intentions, but we went into it thinking we had a chance to watch us kick on up the league, or experiment and we did neither.

Roy has done brilliantly to stabilise the club but he's not the one who's going to progress us now, and I think that showed at the end of the season.

I accept results like Burnley happen. But they happen quite regularly and it's all so predictable.

Here's to being proven wrong tomorrow night!
I can't work out what you think we should be seeing differently!

What teams does it not happen quite regularly too? Champions League qualifying Chelsea lost 12 games last season, as did Leicester, Spurs lost 11 finishing th. That's 5/6 less than we did ffs!

It's like you're accepting us being a mid table team, that will probably lose half there matches, but it can only be 3-2, and it can only be against the top 9 and we should have given everyone of them a game and unluckily have lost.

Your last post is that we win 2 and then lose with a bump....Well no shit, if we won 3 games before every loss we'd be top 4
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  #20005  
Old 26-11-2020, 04:15 PM
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I think most accept the mid table comment.

I disagree with frequency of performances against the likes of Burnley. We have consistently struggled to break teams down, we are predictable.

Anyway, Burnley is now done.. onto Newcastle
This ignores why we struggle. We struggled under Pardew, Allardyce, even FdB slaughtered Burnley and another gift from our player gave them the game!

Even with Wilf, Benteke etc. we have struggled against some of the poor sides, without the players to break them down. Take Zaha out and of course we will struggle. Eze is not a better player than Zaha, and we were never going to create more simply because he played when Zaha didn't.

We haven't invested in the players to do that with any regularity. The players we have added are not capable of doing it, plain and simple. In much the same way Burnley didn't carve us open with ease, we had to do it for them! The players we are left with to create things are the same players that failed to create things under those other managers. It's really not a shock. PVA, Schlupp, Ward, Luka, Riedewald, McArthur, Zaha, Benteke, Townsend, all found it difficult to break down a solid team that gives us the ball under Big Sam/FdB, some under Pardew, and taking out Zaha for Eze isn't going to make it an easier task.

There are 2 teams in every game, there are a few that seem to ignore this every time we fail to win. Burnley were never going to gift us 3 points, doesn't help that individually we duly did!
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  #20006  
Old 26-11-2020, 04:16 PM
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Well, we’ve won 4, drawn one and lost four.
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  #20007  
Old 26-11-2020, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by GrayP41ace View Post
This ignores why we struggle. We struggled under Pardew, Allardyce, even FdB slaughtered Burnley and another gift from our player gave them the game!

Even with Wilf, Benteke etc. we have struggled against some of the poor sides, without the players to break them down. Take Zaha out and of course we will struggle. Eze is not a better player than Zaha, and we were never going to create more simply because he played when Zaha didn't.

We haven't invested in the players to do that with any regularity. The players we have added are not capable of doing it, plain and simple. In much the same way Burnley didn't carve us open with ease, we had to do it for them!
I mean they hit the bar from carving us open and had a clear 1 on 1.. but I digress.

Yes they are capable imo. I donít think wilf playing up front gets the best out him. I donít think playing eze on the left gets the best out of him.
However I do like the fact roy has finally got a midfielder playing can actually pick a pass in Jairo.

Gray, I respect your love for Roy, I have enjoyed some of the back and forth we have on occasions, but we ultimately disagree.

You seem, from your arguments, are more than content with Roy, the way we play, they way we set up, they way we utilise the squad. And thatís cool.

I on the other hand would like to see Us gracefully move on from Roy at the end of the year, because I donít like the way we play most of the time, donít like the way we set up, and donít think he is getting the best from this squad.

So, letís agree to disagree because I feel we will never agree and itíll end up getting more and more tedious.

One thing I think we both agree on, is Roy is/was a safe pair of hands, he done a good job overall and is a throughly nice chap.
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  #20008  
Old 26-11-2020, 04:48 PM
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I mean they hit the bar from carving us open and had a clear 1 on 1.. but I digress.

Yes they are capable imo. I donít think wilf playing up front gets the best out him. I donít think playing eze on the left gets the best out of him.
However I do like the fact roy has finally got a midfielder playing can actually pick a pass in Jairo.

Gray, I respect your love for Roy, I have enjoyed some of the back and forth we have on occasions, but we ultimately disagree.

You seem, from your arguments, are more than content with Roy, the way we play, they way we set up, they way we utilise the squad. And thatís cool.

I on the other hand would like to see Us gracefully move on from Roy at the end of the year, because I donít like the way we play most of the time, donít like the way we set up, and donít think he is getting the best from this squad.

So, letís agree to disagree because I feel we will never agree and itíll end up getting more and more tedious.

One thing I think we both agree on, is Roy is/was a safe pair of hands, he done a good job overall and is a throughly nice chap.
It's not a love for Roy, it's a respect that with a lower budget than EVERYONE he is competing against, he still has MY team achieving something, and it gives us a chance in every game. I would love free flowing football like Liverpool, or some of the carved open chances Man City produce, but we don't have the money and we certainly don't have the players.

Like you, I'm glad he has give Jairo a chance, but the way he played Monday, I wish he hadn't he couldn't pass wind and his desire to get across and do the defensive side clearly was isolating along with Wilf!

It's an acceptance that we won't win every game and an acceptance that whilst 'we're by far the greatest team, the world has ever seen' in the stands, we genuinely are not, nor will we ever be. We lose games that we would like to think we should win against teams sitting thinking we are a team they could get a win against. Burnley winning against us was not a shock, it was one they would have been looking for, just like it was for us.

It's not that I prefer one style to another, I simply prefer wins, and when I can't have what I want, I prefer to at least 'not to lose' which is why I'd take a shit draw when playing shit, over a loss playing well.

The not getting the best out of the squad is always levelled at a select few players going forward and never actually the squad. Aside from 8 games this season, albeit Leeds, Burnley and Fulham took ourselves to cause them or a wonder strike to breach it, the defensive unit of the squad has been exceptionally good under Roy. He's got more out a supposed past it Cahill, the most injury prone soldier walking the earth Sakho, with his treatment companion Tomkins, and even extended the life of Ward as a capable (though incredibly lacking going forward) Right back, that was already a squad player at 28. The detriment to the forward line has always looked to be to the benefit of the defense, that lets be honest, could easily be torn apart game after game with how patched up it has been.

I don't expect us to agree on everything and it will become boring if not already, for everyone else, but the continued piling in on a manager that has actually brought us the most continued 'success' since we gained promotion, with a lower budget than the 3 previous managers before him, is over the top and needs reigning in. It's never going to be brilliant, even in your eyes of what would constitute better, we will lose to a Burnley and we will play shit football, we may even get relegated doing it, we'll be longing for the 'boring' days once again, and probably sooner than we'd all like.
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  #20009  
Old 26-11-2020, 05:25 PM
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It's not a love for Roy, it's a respect that with a lower budget than EVERYONE he is competing against, he still has MY team achieving something, and it gives us a chance in every game. I would love free flowing football like Liverpool, or some of the carved open chances Man City produce, but we don't have the money and we certainly don't have the players.

Like you, I'm glad he has give Jairo a chance, but the way he played Monday, I wish he hadn't he couldn't pass wind and his desire to get across and do the defensive side clearly was isolating along with Wilf!

It's an acceptance that we won't win every game and an acceptance that whilst 'we're by far the greatest team, the world has ever seen' in the stands, we genuinely are not, nor will we ever be. We lose games that we would like to think we should win against teams sitting thinking we are a team they could get a win against. Burnley winning against us was not a shock, it was one they would have been looking for, just like it was for us.

It's not that I prefer one style to another, I simply prefer wins, and when I can't have what I want, I prefer to at least 'not to lose' which is why I'd take a shit draw when playing shit, over a loss playing well.

The not getting the best out of the squad is always levelled at a select few players going forward and never actually the squad. Aside from 8 games this season, albeit Leeds, Burnley and Fulham took ourselves to cause them or a wonder strike to breach it, the defensive unit of the squad has been exceptionally good under Roy. He's got more out a supposed past it Cahill, the most injury prone soldier walking the earth Sakho, with his treatment companion Tomkins, and even extended the life of Ward as a capable (though incredibly lacking going forward) Right back, that was already a squad player at 28. The detriment to the forward line has always looked to be to the benefit of the defense, that lets be honest, could easily be torn apart game after game with how patched up it has been.

I don't expect us to agree on everything and it will become boring if not already, for everyone else, but the continued piling in on a manager that has actually brought us the most continued 'success' since we gained promotion, with a lower budget than the 3 previous managers before him, is over the top and needs reigning in. It's never going to be brilliant, even in your eyes of what would constitute better, we will lose to a Burnley and we will play shit football, we may even get relegated doing it, we'll be longing for the 'boring' days once again, and probably sooner than we'd all like.


Fair post.

I wonít reply with the disagreements but it is more than a fair post with some good points!
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  #20010  
Old 26-11-2020, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by GrayP41ace View Post
It's not a love for Roy, it's a respect that with a lower budget than EVERYONE he is competing against, he still has MY team achieving something, and it gives us a chance in every game. I would love free flowing football like Liverpool, or some of the carved open chances Man City produce, but we don't have the money and we certainly don't have the players.

Like you, I'm glad he has give Jairo a chance, but the way he played Monday, I wish he hadn't he couldn't pass wind and his desire to get across and do the defensive side clearly was isolating along with Wilf!

It's an acceptance that we won't win every game and an acceptance that whilst 'we're by far the greatest team, the world has ever seen' in the stands, we genuinely are not, nor will we ever be. We lose games that we would like to think we should win against teams sitting thinking we are a team they could get a win against. Burnley winning against us was not a shock, it was one they would have been looking for, just like it was for us.

It's not that I prefer one style to another, I simply prefer wins, and when I can't have what I want, I prefer to at least 'not to lose' which is why I'd take a shit draw when playing shit, over a loss playing well.

The not getting the best out of the squad is always levelled at a select few players going forward and never actually the squad. Aside from 8 games this season, albeit Leeds, Burnley and Fulham took ourselves to cause them or a wonder strike to breach it, the defensive unit of the squad has been exceptionally good under Roy. He's got more out a supposed past it Cahill, the most injury prone soldier walking the earth Sakho, with his treatment companion Tomkins, and even extended the life of Ward as a capable (though incredibly lacking going forward) Right back, that was already a squad player at 28. The detriment to the forward line has always looked to be to the benefit of the defense, that lets be honest, could easily be torn apart game after game with how patched up it has been.

I don't expect us to agree on everything and it will become boring if not already, for everyone else, but the continued piling in on a manager that has actually brought us the most continued 'success' since we gained promotion, with a lower budget than the 3 previous managers before him, is over the top and needs reigning in. It's never going to be brilliant, even in your eyes of what would constitute better, we will lose to a Burnley and we will play shit football, we may even get relegated doing it, we'll be longing for the 'boring' days once again, and probably sooner than we'd all like.
That's all fair...

However, our clean sheet record in 2020 isn't that great, and we've kept 2 clean sheets in about 20 performances.

I wish the "free flowing football" nonsense would stop. No one is asking that. I've no issue with us conceding possession, but I'd like us to look more effective going forward when we do. I'd be happy to have Benteke up front with Wilf and Eze playing off him.

We're not even getting many draws at the moment, so it's not like, if we're not losing we're still gaining a point.

We can talk about money spent, but we've also got some very astute signings.
We've got a player we value at £70m.
A striker on loan who's valued between £20-30m.
He's been given one of the best young players in the country.
We've bought in a keeper on a free who's easily worth £15m as well as inheriting a squad with international players in.
It's not like we're relying on bargain basement signings.

I'm in the same camp as TFM. Roy did a great job for 2020, but I think he's taken us as far as he probably can.
I think most managers, with this squad though would get us to 40 points, and others could do it a more entertaining fashion.
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  #20011  
Old 26-11-2020, 05:51 PM
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16th for shots
14th for shots on target.
13th for xG
11th in the table.

None of those actually matter bar the position in the table anyway, Tomo just loves to suck off anything that makes Roy appear rubbish.

Wolves are 18th for xG
Southampton are 14th xG, 13th for shots!

Bet their fans are mightly dissappointed they are 9th and 5th respectively.

Certainly not as chipper as the South Coast bunch sat in the dizzy heights of 16th

9th for xG, 8th for shots

Or the mighty Fulham sat in 6th for number of shots and 11th for xG....Oh to be in their shoes, if only!!
Wolves are in the top half because of a solid defence, not because they have been good going forwards.
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  #20012  
Old 26-11-2020, 05:54 PM
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Of course there will be managers out there who ‘could’ get us mid table while playing more entertaining football. But what’s the point? Risk our premier league status with the hiring of an unproven manager (I can’t see any entertaining, prem proven managers available) for the chance of roughly the same league position with just a few more goals? Why?
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  #20013  
Old 26-11-2020, 06:14 PM
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That's all fair...

However, our clean sheet record in 2020 isn't that great, and we've kept 2 clean sheets in about 20 performances.

I wish the "free flowing football" nonsense would stop. No one is asking that. I've no issue with us conceding possession, but I'd like us to look more effective going forward when we do. I'd be happy to have Benteke up front with Wilf and Eze playing off him.

We're not even getting many draws at the moment, so it's not like, if we're not losing we're still gaining a point.

We can talk about money spent, but we've also got some very astute signings.
We've got a player we value at £70m.
A striker on loan who's valued between £20-30m.
He's been given one of the best young players in the country.
We've bought in a keeper on a free who's easily worth £15m as well as inheriting a squad with international players in.
It's not like we're relying on bargain basement signings.

I'm in the same camp as TFM. Roy did a great job for 2020, but I think he's taken us as far as he probably can.
I think most managers, with this squad though would get us to 40 points, and others could do it a more entertaining fashion.
You’ve no issue with us doing what you say, but you don’t acknowledge that this season is an improvement on last. That’s the issue, you want what suits you now, based on what you don’t like, and despite clear improvements, and obvious signs of trying to be more like you want, it’s not enough for you.

Again, ‘we’re not even getting many draws’! What more are you expecting a mid table side to be getting? I’m really not getting it! We’ve lost 4 from 9 games, so we get a positive result more often than we lose, yet that’s not enough? Should we be losing less? 3 losses from every 9 games is pretty much what Chelsea had for last season and they came 4th! That is delusional. You seem to accept being a mid table side, but expect the results to be better than they are, thus, not mid table at all. I don’t get it at all!

That is a £70m rated player TO US, quite clearly not to anyone else. Very different. Also that player did not play Monday so in the context of the over reaction to losing to Burnley, you can’t say well we have Wilf! Come Friday he will have missed 20% of our season so far....

Batshuayi is not ours, we’ve not spent that, he’s £30m rated and no one has bought him for that besides the club that want rid. Slimani was a £30m player too, how much would you spend on him? Benteke likewise.

He’s got one of the best young players in the Championship, I dare say there are better/youngsters than Eze at every club in the division bar the bottom 4/5 perhaps. Yes he’s good, but he isn’t the finished article. He has also only been here 9 games, incidentally what he hasn’t been given for the previous 3 years.

Ayew, McCarthy, Sorloth, Jach, Rakip, Sako, These are some of the players he’s had you forget to mention. We rely on players no other teams want. With the exception of Eze we’ve not fought off any clubs for any players we’ve signed in ages, nor when faced with one, do we ever sign them. Yes he’s had the free transfer of Guiata, he had Hennessey and Speroni to choose from for 2 years! The best CB we have had this year is a midfielder West Ham didn’t want 2 years ago, he’s just cost us the game against Burnley too. We have a smattering of quality, padded out with largely basement signings and older signings from other managers.

Maybe he has taken us as far as we can, perhaps this is as good as it gets under Roy, perhaps this is as bad as it gets too. This new manager that could get us 40 points playing nicer stuff, could be the manager that gets us relegated instead.
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  #20014  
Old 26-11-2020, 06:28 PM
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I think most accept the mid table comment.

I disagree with frequency of performances against the likes of Burnley. We have consistently struggled to break teams down, we are predictable.

Anyway, Burnley is now done.. onto Newcastle
But we really weren't that bad? If Bats has a better game, we're getting at least a point. If Pope doesn't make a great save, we're getting at least a point.

We have a couple of shocking games this season, but that really wasn't one of them.
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Old 26-11-2020, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by CP-RJW View Post
Of course there will be managers out there who Ďcouldí get us mid table while playing more entertaining football. But whatís the point? Risk our premier league status with the hiring of an unproven manager (I canít see any entertaining, prem proven managers available) for the chance of roughly the same league position with just a few more goals? Why?
As you say, it is a fairly big risk. I also don't think there are that many out there any way.
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Old 26-11-2020, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thefunkymonk View Post
I think most accept the mid table comment.

I disagree with frequency of performances against the likes of Burnley. We have consistently struggled to break teams down, we are predictable.

Anyway, Burnley is now done.. onto Newcastle
But aren't performances like that games when we have concede first? Just as when we score first teams find it very hard to get back against us.

Isn't it almost 2 years now since we lost after scoring first?

If Kouyate hadn't made a silly, basic error, which the manager can't be blamed for, then we may very well have seen a different result. It was the same at home to Burnley last season, when Guaita made the error for their goal.

It cuts both ways. If we score first we are very hard to beat just as we find it very hard to comeback if we concede first.

But that isn't just us. I'm pretty sure there was a stat during the game on Burnley that also said they hadn't lost at home after scoring first for an exceedingly long time.

Last edited by Eddie McGoldrick's tash; 26-11-2020 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 26-11-2020, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by cpfc4evandeva View Post
But we really weren't that bad? If Bats has a better game, we're getting at least a point. If Pope doesn't make a great save, we're getting at least a point.

We have a couple of shocking games this season, but that really wasn't one of them.
Our 2 best chances came from a misplaced pass and a corner.

Roy hasnít managed to set us up in a way to create without Wilf in the team.
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Old 26-11-2020, 07:23 PM
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Our 2 best chances came from a misplaced pass and a corner.

Roy hasn’t managed to set us up in a way to create without Wilf in the team.
How is he meant to? The squad has been built around Wilf! The best player is Wilf! The biggest threat we possess is Wilf! We’ve spent next to nothing to bring in any player than can offer even a small portion of his threat! The money we would need to bring in 2 or 3 players of quality to make this a reality is only possible selling Wilf!

Villa nearly went down with Grealish in their side and now he’s the best thing since sliced bread. They happen to have spent £200m on players around him as well.

EDIT: I don’t understand all this bashing of Roy because he hasn’t managed to win more games without his best player. The top clubs in the world lose more games without their star player! Barcelona, Real, Juventus, Liverpool, Man City, all have worse results without Messi, Ronaldo, Mane, Aguero. It’s what teams have to face and why would we be alone?
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Last edited by GrayP41ace; 26-11-2020 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 26-11-2020, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tomo View Post
Our 2 best chances came from a misplaced pass and a corner.

Roy hasnít managed to set us up in a way to create without Wilf in the team.
I think we've only played once without Wilf in the team since Eze arrived. And we lost, but I think that was down to a defensive mistake than anything else. We have lost plenty of games like that with Wilf in the side too.

Roy still hasn't had his central midfield upgraded for some time. He still hasn't been given the sort of striker we really need.

Also, which manager has got us winning many PL games without Wilf? Pulis did of course but he also had a genuinely good striker who scored a reasonable number of goals - Chamakh - and had both Bolasie and Puncheon to make things happen.

I think getting something out of Batshuayi is a challenge for Roy but it's still relatively early days in that sense.
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Old 26-11-2020, 08:40 PM
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If we hit 20 points before end of December, Parish will be offering Hodgson a further year extension. Be stupid not to. The Club is doing the best, historically, it ever has. Why get rid? There are no guarantees that a replacement will do as well. In my view, Roy will be the one who decides when it is time to go. He would be the last person to try to hang on.
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