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  #18921  
Old 04-07-2020, 10:51 AM
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To compete in the Premier League Palace have to increase their club generated revenue which will in turn allow our spending limit on players and wages under FFP to be raised.

This highlights why the Selhurst Park Redevelopment is so important.

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  #18922  
Old 08-07-2020, 07:25 PM
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Will, this be a good time to drive a good deal to get the main stand done when builders will be gagging for work
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  #18923  
Old 08-07-2020, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterH View Post
I don't think it was a nonsensical question.

What is most likely to happen is that the safety certificate issue leads to Palace just rebuliding the stand with something of similar size to what is there at the moment..maybe with just a little extra attendance.

No Sainsbury issues and no housing issues.

Then the focus will start on Whitehorse and Arthur...with the same old shite..

Maybe we can get up to 30 to 35k...and maybe for Palace that is more realistic anyway.
The point of the new main stand is to get us to 34K. The Advertiser will have Sainsburys issues. The Arthur can't have much done to it thanks to the houses opposite it. The Hol is far too new to be knocking it down and I don't see how you get too many more seats out of it.

The main stand, the Advertiser and filling in the corners are realistically how we increase the capacity. Each of the other stands have a major issue in terms of making them bigger and still being able to play in the stadium without decreasing the grounds capacity too much. The main stand is the least problematical from a build and implementation point of view.

The design and build of the mainstand design is based on Liverpools main stand which means it's a known quantity in terms of build and fit out. Given that it was also an Archiebald Leitch stand. The underpinnings of both Liverpools and our 'new' stand will still be Leitchs and the build is designed to allow large parts of the stand to still be used while the top tier is built above it before connecting up the lower tier to the 'new' tier.

Building a 'new' stand that has the same capacity as the existing one but newer would be a huge waste of funds. The point of the new stand is to generate an extra £15M to £20M a year to make the squad and squad depth better. If it can't do that we should not be wasting money on building a new stand.
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  #18924  
Old 08-07-2020, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by red&blue_moomin View Post
The point of the new main stand is to get us to 34K. The Advertiser will have Sainsburys issues. The Arthur can't have much done to it thanks to the houses opposite it. The Hol is far too new to be knocking it down and I don't see how you get too many more seats out of it.

The main stand, the Advertiser and filling in the corners are realistically how we increase the capacity. Each of the other stands have a major issue in terms of making them bigger and still being able to play in the stadium without decreasing the grounds capacity too much. The main stand is the least problematical from a build and implementation point of view.

The design and build of the mainstand design is based on Liverpools main stand which means it's a known quantity in terms of build and fit out. Given that it was also an Archiebald Leitch stand. The underpinnings of both Liverpools and our 'new' stand will still be Leitchs and the build is designed to allow large parts of the stand to still be used while the top tier is built above it before connecting up the lower tier to the 'new' tier.

Building a 'new' stand that has the same capacity as the existing one but newer would be a huge waste of funds. The point of the new stand is to generate an extra £15M to £20M a year to make the squad and squad depth better. If it can't do that we should not be wasting money on building a new stand.
Pretty sure the base design is virtually identical to Brighton's main stand. I tend to agree with Old Joe Paxton on this, in that this design just wont fit with the rest of the stadium. The rounded design is more relevant to stadiums being built on clear land, rather than one squeezed into a residential area.

It could still have a 10k capacity bringing our overall capacity close to 30k, which with the current state of Arthur is all we'll need until it's rebuilt.
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  #18925  
Old 09-07-2020, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Old Joe Paxton View Post
As said at time of release of plans, a ludicrously out of place, large and overly expensive stand in my option. A showy American style stand that would fit into a a wraparound round stadium but that will probably never happen. It needed to be much more utilitarian, British / European in style and, no pun intended, stand alone. Not as some 1/4 of a full sleek stadium that doesn’t exist. For starters it’s - rightfully - not bringing in a massive hike in attendance but for the cost and size seems utterly ridiculous to me, as well as - as a whole - making us look like a laughing stock. Will look out of place, out of kilter and ridiculous. Think functional and with some sense of proportion - in both senses.
Agree.
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  #18926  
Old 09-07-2020, 02:16 AM
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  #18927  
Old 09-07-2020, 02:19 AM
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Pretty sure the base design is virtually identical to Brighton's main stand. I tend to agree with Old Joe Paxton on this, in that this design just wont fit with the rest of the stadium. The rounded design is more relevant to stadiums being built on clear land, rather than one squeezed into a residential area.

It could still have a 10k capacity bringing our overall capacity close to 30k, which with the current state of Arthur is all we'll need until it's rebuilt.
KSS are the architects and they designed both Liverpools main stand AND the Amex. The important thing for us is KSS figured out how to integrate the Leitch stand into their design. It's a big reason for why we have gone with them.

As for it fitting. Have seen the rest of Selhurst none of it fits. Every stand is different. They were all built in totally different eras. This is no different.
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  #18928  
Old 09-07-2020, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Old Joe Paxton View Post
As said at time of release of plans, a ludicrously out of place, large and overly expensive stand in my option. A showy American style stand that would fit into a a wraparound round stadium but that will probably never happen. It needed to be much more utilitarian, British / European in style and, no pun intended, stand alone. Not as some 1/4 of a full sleek stadium that doesn’t exist. For starters it’s - rightfully - not bringing in a massive hike in attendance but for the cost and size seems utterly ridiculous to me, as well as - as a whole - making us look like a laughing stock. Will look out of place, out of kilter and ridiculous. Think functional and with some sense of proportion - in both senses.
Would you rather we stay in the shit every season because we don't generate any money outside of the TV money. The extra 8000 seats on top of what we already have and crucially the prawn sandwich aspect will generate £15M to £20M a season. It will get us into the £150M a year income bracket which is what we need to not be constantly having squeaky bum time about getting relegated. It also opens the door to actually being a top 10 team and competing for Europe.

It is what will pay for the running of that expensive new Cat 1 academy every year and allow us to actually sign a couple of £20M players every four years or even a single 30M or 40M player and pay the wages. Interestingly most of the revenue from the stand will come from the prawn sandwiches with the normal fans being a 'nice' add on and just allowing more fans to attend matches.

We don't get that built we may as well just **** off back to the championship because at some point with our current income and thus squad size and depth it mean we are going to go down at some point. Yes we will have a Cat 1 academy but we will struggle to pay the several million a year it costs to keep a Cat 1 academy going. That stand along with the academy is beyond critical to the future of Crystal Palace as Premier League club.

I don't think having a much bigger stadium is going to make us a laughing stock quite the opposite in fact. It would give us the 11th biggest stadium in the league as opposed to the 16th. Selhurst is already a bit of a dinosaur ground anyway. It's like anyone things Selhurst is some wonderful ground anyway. The atmosphere the fans generate is what makes Selhurst what it is. Getting more fans in the ground is only going to increase that.
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  #18929  
Old 09-07-2020, 04:22 AM
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Better to have a smaller stand, that needs to be built for safety issues anyway, than no new stand at all.

Your comments are just a mirror of what SP has said.

But many fear it is a pipe dream.

If in five years time the building hasn't started what then? That's five more years plus that promised income boost hasn't arrived.

What's wrong in scaling it down from 34k to 30k and actually getting a plan approved and construction started?
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  #18930  
Old 09-07-2020, 05:16 AM
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What's wrong in scaling it down from 34 million to 30 million and actually getting a plan approved and construction started?
Either would shatter our attendance record!

And the population of many a country!

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  #18931  
Old 09-07-2020, 07:02 AM
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  #18932  
Old 09-07-2020, 07:29 AM
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I do not see how you can even contemplate building the new stand until this pandemic is over, and hate to be negative, but that's showing no signs of going away.
So, I cannot see a way you are going to be allowed to fill a sports stadium for some time, so maybe 25% of capacity, next season, hopefully more, but I would imagine lucky to get 7/8k in at Selhurst Park, next season.
The future in all ways has never been so uncertain - we have been talking about a new stadium/stand for CPFC for years on end, so I can't see anything happening in short/medium term.
I know something needs to be done but we could see a lot of lower league Clubs, maybe even C'Ship ones, go to the wall, because of this terrible situation, so while CPFC should always plan to do something to Selhurst, I don't see how they could do anything about it, at present ?
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  #18933  
Old 09-07-2020, 07:48 AM
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I do not see how you can even contemplate building the new stand until this pandemic is over, and hate to be negative, but that's showing no signs of going away.
So, I cannot see a way you are going to be allowed to fill a sports stadium for some time, so maybe 25% of capacity, next season, hopefully more, but I would imagine lucky to get 7/8k in at Selhurst Park, next season.
The future in all ways has never been so uncertain - we have been talking about a new stadium/stand for CPFC for years on end, so I can't see anything happening in short/medium term.
I know something needs to be done but we could see a lot of lower league Clubs, maybe even C'Ship ones, go to the wall, because of this terrible situation, so while CPFC should always plan to do something to Selhurst, I don't see how they could do anything about it, at present ?
depends if your glass is half empty or half full. SP has stated all along the money for the rebuild is ring fenced. Now would be a great time to do the rebuild precisely because the crowd's might not be at capacity, so rather do it now than when you have to turn away fee paying customers.
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  #18934  
Old 09-07-2020, 10:31 AM
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Mixing my Chilean currency numbers with pounds.
I think you're mixing your attendance thousands with millions - but I appreciate that it was late, your time ...
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Old 09-07-2020, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Old Joe Paxton View Post
As said at time of release of plans, a ludicrously out of place, large and overly expensive stand in my option. A showy American style stand that would fit into a a wraparound round stadium but that will probably never happen. It needed to be much more utilitarian, British / European in style and, no pun intended, stand alone. Not as some 1/4 of a full sleek stadium that doesn’t exist. For starters it’s - rightfully - not bringing in a massive hike in attendance but for the cost and size seems utterly ridiculous to me, as well as - as a whole - making us look like a laughing stock. Will look out of place, out of kilter and ridiculous. Think functional and with some sense of proportion - in both senses.
Completely disagree with this. We HAVE to build the new stand, as designed. Our stadium is way behind a lot of Championship clubs in size and ability to generate ancillary revenue. Improving the stadium, along with the new Category 1 Academy, will set us up for the future. Yes, it is odd that the design reflects as oval-style stadium, whereas the rest of the stadium doesn't - but that really only matters from helicopter TV shots - and that is a very low priority in my book. There are many reasons for the design being the way it is - mainly for maximising capacity with the footprint available - but it (and the Academy) will provide the platform for the club establishing itself as a proper Premier League club.

It is just a shame that we are still hamstrung by the details that any such major property development has to address - because now would be the perfect time to build it, with the stadium closed to fans probably for the next 6-18 months ...
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  #18936  
Old 09-07-2020, 12:06 PM
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It is just a shame that we are still hamstrung by the details that any such major property development has to address - because now would be the perfect time to build it, with the stadium closed to fans probably for the next 6-18 months ...
I agree building now would make sense. I wonder, though, whether the club are reassessing likely crowd levels in future? In the absence of a vaccine or proven therapeutics, it's possible that distancing measures will need to stay in place and, I guess, that a significant number of fans will feel safer staying at home.

Were that to be the case, there seems little sense right now in investing millions upon millions on boosting ground capacity.
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  #18937  
Old 09-07-2020, 12:12 PM
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I agree building now would make sense. I wonder, though, whether the club are reassessing likely crowd levels in future? In the absence of a vaccine or proven therapeutics, it's possible that distancing measures will need to stay in place and, I guess, that a significant number of fans will feel safer staying at home.

Were that to be the case, there seems little sense right now in investing millions upon millions on boosting ground capacity.
The last thing you want is sick looking fans turning up at football matches only for police with thermometers singing aggressively at them “you’re supposed to be at home”
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Old 09-07-2020, 12:25 PM
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I agree building now would make sense. I wonder, though, whether the club are reassessing likely crowd levels in future? In the absence of a vaccine or proven therapeutics, it's possible that distancing measures will need to stay in place and, I guess, that a significant number of fans will feel safer staying at home.

Were that to be the case, there seems little sense right now in investing millions upon millions on boosting ground capacity.
It's academic, because I suspect that we don't have the cash available now - and I fear that the need for cash preservation in the next year or two will further delay the project - but you are portraying a somewhat apocalyptic future ...
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  #18939  
Old 09-07-2020, 01:23 PM
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Better to have a smaller stand, that needs to be built for safety issues anyway, than no new stand at all.

Your comments are just a mirror of what SP has said.

But many fear it is a pipe dream.

If in five years time the building hasn't started what then? That's five more years plus that promised income boost hasn't arrived.

What's wrong in scaling it down from 34k to 30k and actually getting a plan approved and construction started?
A smaller stand is not going to cost much less than the one we are building. A smaller stand lowers the income boost and means we will need to redevelop the Advertiser much sooner than we want to. It's the corporate offering in the main stand that is actually going to deliver the bulk of the £15M to £20M we are expecting to generate. The issue isn't planning we've got that it's Sainsburys taking the piss over a bit of car park.

More and more clubs have stadiums that start mid 30K then get significantly bigger. That is an issue for us in staying competive. We are already one of the smallest teams in the division. It's going to get much worse with many teams having their own stadium upgrades happening. Non TV money income is the determinate between a Watford, Bournemouth, Burnley, Norwich, Stoke, West Brom, Huddersfield, Reading, Wigan and so on. All the clubs I've mentioned have a much higher likelihood of going down due to lack of resources. We are right in that bracket. That is what SP means by being like a Southampton, an Everton or a Leicester. He doesn't really mean on the pitch (though that often comes with it).

All of our stands have issues with planing permission and interested parties. The main stand is the 'simplest' in that the land behind it is ours and is not residential or commercial.

Not to mention the design we are using is well known and understood thus the costs and integration issues with it have been seen before by the contractor. A smaller stand is going to be a bespoke design so it is going to need the planning down again. All the planning permission, building regs, structural, and safety planning stuff and so on will all need to be redone all of the materials costs, logistics etc etc will need to be done again. Essentially chucking a load of spent money on a known quantity to redo all the work again. TFL are still going to want us to help pay for costs at Norwood Junction and parking/road management stuff. Removing a couple of 1000 seats is going to cost us way more money in the long run.

Air is free and steel is cheap until you've already built something then railroaded yourself into something for decades.

I don't think the Advertiser could support more than another 2000 fans being generous. Without building a far bigger stand. The Arthur and the Hol are non starters right now for multiple reasons. The only stands we can realistically sort out are the main and the Advertiser.

But if you honestly the think issues we've had with Sainsburys over a bit of carpark are going to simpler than rebuilding the Advertiser then I've got a bridge to sell you.
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Last edited by red&blue_moomin; 09-07-2020 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 09-07-2020, 01:25 PM
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