Venezuela

[CT_Palace]

Originally Posted by Raggy

President Maduro won free and fair elections were validated by hundreds of international observers.

LOL. If that election is your idea of "free and fair" I'd love to see what you think an unfair election looks like.

Admit it Raggy, you have no idea what you're talking about. Really, do you?

[Raggy]

Originally Posted by Heb 7:4

No he didn't. That's why Venezuela were suspended from Mercosur, for violation of the democratic principle. The decision to suspend was unanimous.

But only 4 countries can vote!

Associate members like Bolivia can't vote, and not every South American country is even in Mercosur.

Puts 'unanimous' in context.

[DAWSYEAGLE]

Originally Posted by cockneyrebel

Which totally ignores the fact that the forces backing the coup don’t care for the people of Venezuela. Look all over South America where there is abject poverty. While democracy is precious, so is a basic standard of living.

You’re every bit as bad as those that back the regime but a mirror image.

That might be true, it might not be true. However, surely anything is better than what is currently transpiring.

[Adlerhorst]

Originally Posted by DAWSYEAGLE

That might be true, it might not be true. However, surely anything is better than what is currently transpiring.

Some people on here have a habit of opposing anything where the revolution is not pure enough for them.

The same was true of Syria. Some people argued we shouldn’t oppose Assad because some of the people rebelling against his rule were seriously unpleasant. That’s true, some were seriously unpleasant. But that doesn’t mean you stand aside when it was exceptionally obvious Assad was about to butcher his way across the country and there were about to be hundreds of thousands of dead people. We stood aside, and Assad did his butchering.

[Stellavista]

Originally Posted by Heb 7:4

Is this the same neo-liberal establishment that faked a plane hitting the pentagon, in order to hide the real plane somewhere it's never been discovered for reasons no one can work out, while at the same time flying two real planes into the twin towers as an excuse to secretly blow them up?

Using the most extreme, wacko conspiracy theories to deny neo-liberalism is a bit shit to be honest, Heb. Are you honestly defending the actions of the West based on the facts that a few nutters think the earth is flat and that Maduro is worse than any alternative?

[cockneyrebel]

Originally Posted by Adlerhorst

Some people on here have a habit of opposing anything where the revolution is not pure enough for them.

The same was true of Syria. Some people argued we shouldn’t oppose Assad because some of the people rebelling against his rule were seriously unpleasant. That’s true, some were seriously unpleasant. But that doesn’t mean you stand aside when it was exceptionally obvious Assad was about to butcher his way across the country and there were about to be hundreds of thousands of dead people. We stood aside, and Assad did his butchering.

I opposed Assad and unlike most on here (and do nothing point scorers like Heb), actually did something about it rather than just moaning on a message board. My trade union branch raised thousands in solidarity aid for rebel areas and I was part of the Syrian Solidarity Campaign. As it goes the Free Syrian Army weren’t unpleasant.

Doesn’t mean I’ll support a US backed coup in Venezuela, or the regime either.

[cockneyrebel]

Originally Posted by Stellavista

Using the most extreme, wacko conspiracy theories to deny neo-liberalism is a bit shit to be honest, Heb. Are you honestly defending the actions of the West based on the facts that a few nutters think the earth is flat and that Maduro is worse than any alternative?

Sadly there has been and could be worse. The last 50 years of South American history shows that. The current regime is terrible but the US and the U.K. have backed a lot worse. Also there has been a wave of right wing governments elected across the continent (and a fascist in Brazil), and the idea that the US isn’t the main power here and it’s Canada is laughable.

[Raggy]

Originally Posted by Adlerhorst

Some people on here have a habit of opposing anything where the revolution is not pure enough for them.

The same was true of Syria. Some people argued we shouldn’t oppose Assad because some of the people rebelling against his rule were seriously unpleasant. That’s true, some were seriously unpleasant. But that doesn’t mean you stand aside when it was exceptionally obvious Assad was about to butcher his way across the country and there were about to be hundreds of thousands of dead people. We stood aside, and Assad did his butchering.

We should have stayed the hell out of Syria. Assad was bad, but opposing him facilitated the rise of ISIS who are even worse.

Let's not kid ourselves we were in Syria to 'fight bad guys'. If that were true we would have invaded Saudia Arabia long ago. We were in Syria because Assad was getting too chummy to the Russians. Simple as that.

Venezuela is a similar trajectory and people never learn.

[Heb 7:4]

Originally Posted by Raggy

But only 4 countries can vote!

Associate members like Bolivia can't vote, and not every South American country is even in Mercosur.

Puts 'unanimous' in context.

Been using Google have you? Why would assosiate members be able to vote? And what does it have to do with the fact that Venezuela got kicked out of their own regional grouping because the rules of Mercosur say you have to be a democracy to be a member?

You claimed Maduro was elected in free and fair elections. This was horseshit. He's a dictator.

[Raggy]

Originally Posted by cockneyrebel

I opposed Assad and unlike most on here (and do nothing point scorers like Heb), actually did something about it rather than just moaning on a message board. My trade union branch raised thousands in solidarity aid for rebel areas and I was part of the Syrian Solidarity Campaign. As it goes the Free Syrian Army weren’t unpleasant.

Doesn’t mean I’ll support a US backed coup in Venezuela, or the regime either.

You were conned. Some of the Free Syrian Army weren't bad, but plenty were. Most of the rebels were warlords, jihadists or both. It's highly likely that your contributions ended up in the wrong hands.

The Kurds were the best of a bad bunch, but the UK prosecuted volunteers who went to help them. Yet another example where self-determination can't be allowed to interfere with wider geo-political aims.

[Heb 7:4]

Originally Posted by Stellavista

Using the most extreme, wacko conspiracy theories to deny neo-liberalism is a bit shit to be honest, Heb. Are you honestly defending the actions of the West based on the facts that a few nutters think the earth is flat and that Maduro is worse than any alternative?

I have no idea what you're on about to be honest. I was just mocking Raggy for being a 9/11 truther, which is why I have no more respect for his conspiracy theories on Venezuela about which is is similarly ignorant, basing his views not on any knowledge but on what fits his crackpot worldview.

[Golf Boy]

Let’s face it. Everyones right. He is a dictator but we are trying to oust him because of oil interests. All that horseshit about democracy. Lol.

[CT_Palace]

I couldn’t give a shit about oil or democracy, but I do give a shit about ordinary Venezuelans who are having a ******* awful time because of Maduro.
Those like Raggy should come here and talk to some of the 100s of thousands of Venezuelans who have had to emigrate to Chile to survive. It’s a tragedy.

[Heb 7:4]

3m Venezuelans have fled since 2014. I have a mate who's family are still there.

It's a humanitarian disaster. And the rest of Latin America is shouldering the burden.

But **** all them, how can we make this all about us and oil eh?

[cockneyrebel]

Originally Posted by Raggy

You were conned. Some of the Free Syrian Army weren't bad, but plenty were. Most of the rebels were warlords, jihadists or both. It's highly likely that your contributions ended up in the wrong hands.

The Kurds were the best of a bad bunch, but the UK prosecuted volunteers who went to help them. Yet another example where self-determination can't be allowed to interfere with wider geo-political aims.

I wasn’t conned at all, I suspect you were given you back fascist yellow jackets even when the RMT, who you say you back, are condemning them.

The contributions built water supplies so I doubt it.

You are talking utter rubbish on this. I suspected you are one those people who glamorise the YPG with their Stalinist politics and US army bases dotted all over their territory as they do their lash ups with Assad.

[cockneyrebel]

Originally Posted by Raggy

We should have stayed the hell out of Syria. Assad was bad, but opposing him facilitated the rise of ISIS who are even worse.

What are you taking about? Assad wanted ISIS in place and spent his whole time fighting the FSA who were his real threat. He didn’t attack ISIS as was good for his propaganda.

Russia carpet bombed Syria and propped up Assad’s regime along with Iran.

[cockneyrebel]

Originally Posted by CT_Palace

I couldn’t give a shit about oil or democracy, but I do give a shit about ordinary Venezuelans who are having a ******* awful time because of Maduro.
Those like Raggy should come here and talk to some of the 100s of thousands of Venezuelans who have had to emigrate to Chile to survive. It’s a tragedy.

True but I very much doubt the coup will make it any better.

That’s the problem with Heb and his ilk, they provide no answers to anything and turn a blind eye to what the forces behind the coup really stand for. And it sure isn’t the Venezuelan people.

It’s the same kind of thinking that turns a blind eye to the huge misery that creates the huge investment funds that prop up Scandinavian social democracy. Yes they are better than many systems around the world, and maybe all. But it’s convenient to ignore the misery and oppression that they depend on.

[Raggy]

Originally Posted by CT_Palace

I couldn’t give a shit about oil or democracy, but I do give a shit about ordinary Venezuelans who are having a ******* awful time because of Maduro.
Those like Raggy should come here and talk to some of the 100s of thousands of Venezuelans who have had to emigrate to Chile to survive. It’s a tragedy.

Yes it's a tragedy.
But because of Maduro? Or because of the US and its allies applying sanctions as a means of applying political pressure?

[Raggy]

Originally Posted by cockneyrebel

I wasn’t conned at all, I suspect you were given you back fascist yellow jackets even when the RMT, who you say you back, are condemning them.

The contributions built water supplies so I doubt it.

You are talking utter rubbish on this. I suspected you are one those people who glamorise the YPG with their Stalinist politics and US army bases dotted all over their territory as they do their lash ups with Assad.

See the water supplies being installed did you?

Or is this yet another piece if third-hand information you have accepted as gospel?

[CT_Palace]

Originally Posted by Raggy

Yes it's a tragedy.
But because of Maduro? Or because of the US and its allies applying sanctions as a means of applying political pressure?

What? All of a sudden economic sanctions work to the point of utterly destroying a country economically? Get real, for once.