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  #81  
Old 16-09-2019, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by redandblue View Post
What a dishonest man, East Surrey has voted a conservative candidate in since 1918 regardless of who it is, they have always collected at least 50% of the vote and always had a majority of at least 11k and always more than the total vote cast for their nearest rival. The constituents have made it very clear that they want a conservative MP.

Sam Gyimah crossing the floor shows a huge disrespect for the people who voted for him, I don’t think that there is clearer example of an MP not representing the people that give him his livelihood and trust him to represent their views in Parliament.

He should stand down if he is not happy with the government and then see how well he does as a Lib Dem candidate in East Surrey.
If he stood down, which he essentially has, then they'd have no representation until the next election. I can see a significant point here, that the Conservative party to which he belonged was no longer the Conservative party he identified with - The rapid shift to the right, the expelling of anyone who voted against them. Even I, can see that the Conservative party even a year ago, and the current regime of government are completely different.

Personally, I think it should trigger a by-election, but given we'll be at a general election sooner than later, I suspect thats pointless. Indeed, it will be interesting to see how well he does at a general election.

Conservative really doesn't mean what it used to mean. The Opportunist and Anti-Union party seems more descriptive of the current trend of the party.

Also, as he had the whip withdrawn, isn't it more a case of the Conservative Government decided he was no longer a Conservative, and effectively 'expelled' the democratically elected representative and he then crossed to the Lib Dems, allowing representation of this constituents in parliment directly. If you're voting along 'party lines' irrespective of who your candidates are, what they believe and are arguing for, its not democracy thats the problem, its you.

It seems weird how many 'traitors' Brexiteers have elected to represent them...

Last edited by dogstar721; 16-09-2019 at 11:15 AM.
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  #82  
Old 16-09-2019, 11:22 AM
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My constituency, he will be out at the next election - nailed on. And I voted for the party he now represents last time out.
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  #83  
Old 16-09-2019, 11:44 AM
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What a terrible person he is, putting the welfare of the country before his personal ambition. The very mirror image of our PM.
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  #84  
Old 16-09-2019, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by wedgetail View Post
What a terrible person he is, putting the welfare of the country before his personal ambition. The very mirror image of our PM.
Indeed, I have traditionally, very little respect for the Conservative party, but the actions of the '21' for me served to remind me that the perception of politicians as a self interested, gravy train riding elite, really only applied to the worst element.

That threatened with expulsion from a party, where some had spent their entire poltical lives, they voted according to their beliefs, impressed me - I'd always had a fondness for the likes of Ken Clarke (who I regard as a representive of what a one nation conservative party should look like) but that so many people would stand up, for what was effectively right, over their own best interests, is one of the few moments of Brexit that hasn't depressed, embaressed, humiliated or disgraced the nation.

I just wish that they'd all stand at the next election. I find it hard to believe anyone who believes in the soverignity of parliment and UK democracy, can justify supporting a government (under Johnson) which seems entirely set to undermine and subvert that to its own ends.

Or that so many people would think that him or the likes of Jacoob Rees Moog have even an inclination of many Brexit supporters or their best interests.
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  #85  
Old 16-09-2019, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Indeed, I have traditionally, very little respect for the Conservative party, but the actions of the '21' for me served to remind me that the perception of politicians as a self interested, gravy train riding elite, really only applied to the worst element.

That threatened with expulsion from a party, where some had spent their entire poltical lives, they voted according to their beliefs, impressed me - I'd always had a fondness for the likes of Ken Clarke (who I regard as a representive of what a one nation conservative party should look like) but that so many people would stand up, for what was effectively right, over their own best interests, is one of the few moments of Brexit that hasn't depressed, embaressed, humiliated or disgraced the nation.

I just wish that they'd all stand at the next election. I find it hard to believe anyone who believes in the soverignity of parliment and UK democracy, can justify supporting a government (under Johnson) which seems entirely set to undermine and subvert that to its own ends.

Or that so many people would think that him or the likes of Jacoob Rees Moog have even an inclination of many Brexit supporters or their best interests.
Well put. Although I too am not a Tory, I couldn't help but admire the brave and principled 21. If I were voting in one of their constituencies, seeing their country before party/career stance would get my vote
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  #86  
Old 16-09-2019, 12:48 PM
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I think Jimmy is a more of Sexit Party guy, than a conservative
more a Fix it Party ?
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  #87  
Old 16-09-2019, 12:59 PM
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One of the most predictable tropes in politics is party A lambasting a candidate, colleague or representative as unfit and/or undemocratic when they join party B, whilst party B defends the rights of the individual to choose.

Months later, parties A and B will have a complete change of heart when the roles are reversed.

It's laughable.
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  #88  
Old 16-09-2019, 01:01 PM
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I'm curious - do those who think elected representatives should resign when they change parties also believe we should keep FPTP?
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  #89  
Old 16-09-2019, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglejez View Post
Fair point. Never underestimate the stupidity and arrogance of political parties. That said I'm assuming he'll be parachuted to a safe LD seat somewhere ? He was pretty unpopular even before this
A safe Lib Dem seat? Now there's a notion!!
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  #90  
Old 16-09-2019, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Indeed, I have traditionally, very little respect for the Conservative party, but the actions of the '21' for me served to remind me that the perception of politicians as a self interested, gravy train riding elite, really only applied to the worst element.

That threatened with expulsion from a party, where some had spent their entire poltical lives, they voted according to their beliefs, impressed me - I'd always had a fondness for the likes of Ken Clarke (who I regard as a representive of what a one nation conservative party should look like) but that so many people would stand up, for what was effectively right, over their own best interests, is one of the few moments of Brexit that hasn't depressed, embaressed, humiliated or disgraced the nation.

I just wish that they'd all stand at the next election. I find it hard to believe anyone who believes in the soverignity of parliment and UK democracy, can justify supporting a government (under Johnson) which seems entirely set to undermine and subvert that to its own ends.

Or that so many people would think that him or the likes of Jacoob Rees Moog have even an inclination of many Brexit supporters or their best interests.
100% agree
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  #91  
Old 16-09-2019, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tasty_snacks View Post
I'm curious - do those who think elected representatives should resign when they change parties also believe we should keep FPTP?
No, I did, until I thought about it, when the Labour MPs were switching to Change UK or whatever it was. Otherwise we'd end up in a system where party took precident over representation.

You vote for the person to represent you. The party puts up the candidate it thinks will win. If they don't represent you, then you shouldn't vote for them. This benefits society, as it creates a 'broad base' within political parties. Otherwise you just end up with Leader Yes Men.

The resent example of the 21 Tory Rebels demonstrates how representation is important, and why candidates that don't just follow party dicatate are important - It keeps political discourse alive, both in the electorate and the party.

If when MPs were 'expelled' by their party or having the whip removed, and then replaced - you'd have a non-representative system. If it triggered a by-election, you'd have a period of non-representation whilst you waited for an election.

I also think we need proportional representation - because it seems increasingly unlikely we will form many majority governments going forwards. But that will need to wait maybe to see the outcome of the next few elections. There are risks around representation relating to PR, where you're no longer electing an individual (ie I could be a moderate Conservative, vote conservative and find that I'm now represented by Jacob Rees Moog. Similarly, I could vote in PR because I'm a left of centre political minded man, and find myself represented by John McDonald.

The basis here isn't that he's no longer a conseravtive even, but that what it is to be a Conservative has changed. He's still the person you elected, regardless of what party he belongs to. He still, in theory, possesses the same values and beliefs he was elected on.

If you're voting for the party, you've misunderstood how the system works and how representation is supposed to work. Its not the candidate's decisions that are the problem, its your own assumptions.

Last edited by dogstar721; 16-09-2019 at 02:32 PM.
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  #92  
Old 23-09-2019, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by redandblue View Post
What a dishonest man, East Surrey has voted a conservative candidate in since 1918 regardless of who it is, they have always collected at least 50% of the vote and always had a majority of at least 11k and always more than the total vote cast for their nearest rival. The constituents have made it very clear that they want a conservative MP.

Sam Gyimah crossing the floor shows a huge disrespect for the people who voted for him, I don’t think that there is clearer example of an MP not representing the people that give him his livelihood and trust him to represent their views in Parliament.

He should stand down if he is not happy with the government and then see how well he does as a Lib Dem candidate in East Surrey.

Sound to me like East Surrey’s voters fit Einstein’s definition of insanity. i’d also note that the suggestion is not what happens so why should East Surrey have rights different to the rest of the country?

Look at the reasons for his actions in what are not normal times. Add also that the Tory whip appears to have been ignored numerous times since the last GE. Also remember that the next GE is not far off so they can vote him out then if they want
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  #93  
Old 27-09-2019, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
No, I did, until I thought about it, when the Labour MPs were switching to Change UK or whatever it was. Otherwise we'd end up in a system where party took precident over representation.

You vote for the person to represent you. The party puts up the candidate it thinks will win. If they don't represent you, then you shouldn't vote for them. This benefits society, as it creates a 'broad base' within political parties. Otherwise you just end up with Leader Yes Men.

The resent example of the 21 Tory Rebels demonstrates how representation is important, and why candidates that don't just follow party dicatate are important - It keeps political discourse alive, both in the electorate and the party.

If when MPs were 'expelled' by their party or having the whip removed, and then replaced - you'd have a non-representative system. If it triggered a by-election, you'd have a period of non-representation whilst you waited for an election.

I also think we need proportional representation - because it seems increasingly unlikely we will form many majority governments going forwards. But that will need to wait maybe to see the outcome of the next few elections. There are risks around representation relating to PR, where you're no longer electing an individual (ie I could be a moderate Conservative, vote conservative and find that I'm now represented by Jacob Rees Moog. Similarly, I could vote in PR because I'm a left of centre political minded man, and find myself represented by John McDonald.

The basis here isn't that he's no longer a conseravtive even, but that what it is to be a Conservative has changed. He's still the person you elected, regardless of what party he belongs to. He still, in theory, possesses the same values and beliefs he was elected on.

If you're voting for the party, you've misunderstood how the system works and how representation is supposed to work. Its not the candidate's decisions that are the problem, its your own assumptions.
Just read your excellent post and think you have summed up the feeling of many moderate Conservatives. I have voted Conservative all my life, my views haven't changed much over the years and I didn't have much against Blair's years (Tory Lite).

I am now left without a party to vote for. The Conservatives have changed - not me.
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  #94  
Old 27-09-2019, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Jukesy View Post
Just read your excellent post and think you have summed up the feeling of many moderate Conservatives. I have voted Conservative all my life, my views haven't changed much over the years and I didn't have much against Blair's years (Tory Lite).

I am now left without a party to vote for. The Conservatives have changed - not me.
The same can be said about most people like myself who have voted Labour for years.
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Old 27-09-2019, 01:06 PM
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The same can be said about most people like myself who have voted Labour for years.
I know they all had their faults but give me back the Major/Blair/Brown/Cameron years anytime.
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Old 27-09-2019, 01:19 PM
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Me and my brother were talking about this the other day. Politics was boring, and it was bloody brilliant.
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  #97  
Old 27-09-2019, 02:33 PM
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I know they all had their faults but give me back the Major/Blair/Brown/Cameron years anytime.
I know it is fashionable at the moment to hate on them, but personally I thought Blair and Cameron were decent PMs. At least they gave leadership unlike the last 3 years of complete and utter bollocks.
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Old 27-09-2019, 02:53 PM
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I know they all had their faults but give me back the Major/Blair/Brown/Cameron years anytime.
Agree with that.

Maybe UK politics should do what The FA would do if you can't find the right person in your country, go and bring someone in from overseas...Barack Obama is free at the moment. (I am joking).
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Old 27-09-2019, 03:03 PM
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I know it is fashionable at the moment to hate on them, but personally I thought Blair and Cameron were decent PMs. At least they gave leadership unlike the last 3 years of complete and utter bollocks.
I caught the very end of the Cameron program last night where he was effectively shafting Nick Clegg (or was that on Babe Station??). Clegg said to him after the election - we did some good things, don't screw it up. He also said that Cameron had a feeling of invincibility after the Indy Ref and the second election which was badly misplaced and arrogant.

Cameron looked genuinely contrite over the EU Ref and how it stopped him delivering a (in his mind) moderate Conservative agenda over the following 4 years.

However - for that one deluded and ill thought out decision (which was purely to spike UKIP and the swivel eyed loons on his own side who were both Eurosceptic and against his modernising agenda on gay rights etc) he goes down in history as one of the worst in memory.
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Old 27-09-2019, 03:18 PM
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Agree with that.

Maybe UK politics should do what The FA would do if you can't find the right person in your country, go and bring someone in from overseas...Barack Obama is free at the moment. (I am joking).
He'd be head and shoulders above anything we have on offer at the moment!
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